22-05-2003 03:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Notice what LotM chose not to include, "for legth." quote: Matt LeMieux, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri, said, "I think if the police are going to conduct searches and arrest people, it ought to be based on the conduct of what a person is doing now. But what they're doing is pre-emptively trying to arrest people. It's a bad and unconstitutional policy." He called the housing inspections "a trick" to get in without a warrant and suggested police should have worked with protesters instead of antagonizing them. [

yup lemieux viewpoint is presented by "corporate media" I didnt include it as you had already included a quote from him, i was trying to show a different viewpoint.

	22-05-2003 03:20									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You need rocks and nails (no mention of rusty in the article) for rehabbing a building. Sling-shots are usefull for quikly disposing of tear gas canisters, since the police have had a nasty habit of attacking peaceful demonstrations for the past four years.

I live in the DC area. Every year about half the folks who work downtown cant go to work when the IMF meets, cause of harassment and obstruction by your "peaceful" protesters.

If people choose to break the law and to obstruct the uses of the streets and sidewalks by law abiding citizens trying to go about their business, the police have EVERY right to use tear gas to disperse them, and they have NO RIGHT to use slingshots to send it back at the police.

Bastards.

	22-05-2003 03:20									#63
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Chegitz, Still angry about the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991?

You Provide no Source, YOU PROVIDE NOTHING!, and yet you want to destroy Capitalism... you criminal!

	22-05-2003 03:21									#64
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LOTM, thanks for the info. I don't trust the biased sites that che brings up. More mainstream news sources usually give both sides. The irony here is that the same people saying you have to trust 'democracynow' and 'indymedia' scoff if a news item is brought by 'newsmax' or 'Foxnews' and say they want a "REAL" news source.

	22-05-2003 03:22									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sava LOTM: I apologize for my post being worded the way it was... I have a limited command of the English language. I did not mean to put words in your mouth about the assault rifle issue. As for protests... the Contsitution grants the freedom to assemble... I don't recall the amendment that says people have the right to get to work in a timely fashion.

Ok, Poindexter. Since when did a person's right to protest supercede another person's right to not protest?
To simply go to work?

	22-05-2003 03:24									#66
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quote: I live in the DC area. Every year about half the folks who work downtown cant go to work when the IMF meets, cause of harassment and obstruction by your "peaceful" protesters. If people choose to break the law and to obstruct the uses of the streets and sidewalks by law abiding citizens trying to go about their business, the police have EVERY right to use tear gas to disperse them, and they have NO RIGHT to use slingshots to send it back at the police. Bastards.

I wonder if you think the shooters at Kent State were justified.

	22-05-2003 03:24									#67
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark As far as i can tell the police were merely enforcing housing law. Maybe they were using a technicality. you want to go around doing radical things, it behooves you to stay on the right side of technicalities.

Given that the building was condemned ony that morning, it is rather suspicious. If the building wasn't fit for habitation, why did St. Louis sell the building to them? Why did they comdemn the building the weekend a demonstration was to take place?

Chicago has a long history of using housing codes to get rid of institutions they don't want. Several years ago, as a certain neighborhood gentrified, the new neighbors became increasing disgruntled with a homeless shelter. Although the shelter had been there "forever," the new neighbors had money. So they city came in and comdemned the space and closed the shelter at the behest of my alderwoman.

quote: And given the record of use of such things at anti-globalization protests, (at which they have been used to violate the civil rights of people trying to go to work) the fact that a group of people was gathering them in anticipation of such a protest seems a legitimate concern for law enforcement.

Given the record of police attacking peaceful demonstrations and "proactively" arresting activists during and befoer anti-globalization protests, it seems rather suspicious that the police chose that morning to enforce a condemnation that had only been issued hours before. If you are at all familiar with condemned buildings, it often takes years for the city to do anything about them, and yet within hours, the police invade. Hmmmm.

quote: you guys seem to think that freedom means giving the revolution a fighting chance. This liberal says Uh-uh.

No, I don't expect you to give the revolution a fighting chance. I do expect you to obey your Consitution when it comes to legitimate public protest!

	22-05-2003 03:25									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You need rocks and nails (no mention of rusty in the article) for rehabbing a building. Sling-shots are usefull for quikly disposing of tear gas canisters, since the police have had a nasty habit of attacking peaceful demonstrations for the past four years.

you use rocks for rehabbing a building???? How exactly? Do these guys not believe in hammers (now theres a sinister capitalist invention)

We all know what rocks are good for, that hammers are not. Can you say "uprising of stones"????

	22-05-2003 03:25									#69
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok, Poindexter. Since when did a person's right to protest supercede another person's right to not protest? To simply go to work?

Since the Constitution was written.

	22-05-2003 03:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark As far as i can tell the police were merely enforcing housing law. Maybe they were using a technicality. you want to go around doing radical things, it behooves you to stay on the right side of technicalities. Given that the building was condemned ony that morning, it is rather suspicious. If the building wasn't fit for habitation, why did St. Louis sell the building to them?

Baltimore had a program like that - they sell you the building cheap, you have like a year to bring it up to code.

	22-05-2003 03:27									#71
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quote: Since the Constitution was written.

Um no... the right to protest cannot override someone's right to go about their work.

	22-05-2003 03:27									#72
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You're on drugs or drink or both, Sava.
One person's rights don't step all over another person's.

There is your main problem, along with Che's and several other people here.

	22-05-2003 03:29									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark As far as i can tell the police were merely enforcing housing law. Maybe they were using a technicality. you want to go around doing radical things, it behooves you to stay on the right side of technicalities. Given that the building was condemned ony that morning, it is rather suspicious. If the building wasn't fit for habitation, why did St. Louis sell the building to them? Why did they comdemn the building the weekend a demonstration was to take place? Chicago has a long history of using housing codes to get rid of institutions they don't want. Several years ago, as a certain neighborhood gentrified, the new neighbors became increasing disgruntled with a homeless shelter. Although the shelter had been there "forever," the new neighbors had money. So they city came in and comdemned the space and closed the shelter at the behest of my alderwoman. quote: And given the record of use of such things at anti-globalization protests, (at which they have been used to violate the civil rights of people trying to go to work) the fact that a group of people was gathering them in anticipation of such a protest seems a legitimate concern for law enforcement. Given the record of police attacking peaceful demonstrations and "proactively" arresting activists during and befoer anti-globalization protests, it seems rather suspicious that the police chose that morning to enforce a condemnation that had only been issued hours before. If you are at all familiar with condemned buildings, it often takes years for the city to do anything about them, and yet within hours, the police invade. Hmmmm. quote: you guys seem to think that freedom means giving the revolution a fighting chance. This liberal says Uh-uh. No, I don't expect you to give the revolution a fighting chance. I do expect you to obey your Consitution when it comes to legitimate public protest!

So suppose the police decided to speed up the priocess cause they suspected these people were about to engage in violent or otherwise unlawful activities. Sneaky, huh. Unconstitutional, no.

	22-05-2003 03:30									#74
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I've read the constitution guys... sorry, but I didn't read the amendment that guaranteed a speedy trip to work. I did, however, read that little, insignificant amendment that allows the right to assemble.

EDIT:

quote: One person's rights don't step all over another person's.

You are correct... but a speedy trip to work isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution.

	22-05-2003 03:31									#75
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"Police attacking the left across Midwest"
Tell me when we get to the public torture and mutilation phase; it has been a dull month.

	22-05-2003 03:33									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Since the Constitution was written. Um no... the right to protest cannot override someone's right to go about their work.

that why they keep saying "peaceful protests" (though that is disputed wrt Seattle) They want you to think the mean police are stopping folks protesting in the park, trying to keep them from having freedom of speech. What the anarchists are actually trying to do is to shut down a city, to make the city pay for hosting a conference they disapprove of. They are attempting to do everything in their power to PREVENT speech they dislike from happening. They are interested in DIRECT ACTION, not in participating in a Millsian debate.

Bastards.

	22-05-2003 03:33									#77
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Yeah, you have the right to assemble as long as it doesn't violate other people's rights. You can't paralyze a city because you want to protest. That is why protesters that block streets are arrested for causing a public disturbance!

Btw, if we are going to play that game, I didn't read any amendment that said we can't ban Communists from holding any office.

	22-05-2003 03:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok, Poindexter. Since when did a person's right to protest supercede another person's right to not protest? To simply go to work?

One's in the Constitution, the other isn't. The government cannot suppress a Constitutional right for a non-Constitutional right.

LotM, you ever rehabbed anything? Rocks are used to hold down tarps.

When was the last demonstration your heard of in the US when protestors threw rocks? We've all heard about violent protestors, but these are usually people who are assaulting police nightsticks with their heads and police tear gas with their lungs. The sling shot is indeed suspicious, but most likely it is for exactly what I said, flinging the police's own weapons back at them.

I like how you call yourself a liberal, but are oppsed to the First Amendment.

	22-05-2003 03:34									#79
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Sava. One more try, that's all for me.

It's the people's right to assemble, at work, too.
Not just to assemble to be a disruptive force.

	22-05-2003 03:35									#80
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quote: a speedy trip to work isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution.

Read the 9th Amendment... the states can have their own rights guarenteed to its people. And on of those rights is the ability to be able to earn a living. If the city is shut down, you can't do so.

	22-05-2003 03:35									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I've read the constitution guys... sorry, but I didn't read the amendment that guaranteed a speedy trip to work. I did, however, read that little, insignificant amendment that allows the right to assemble. EDIT: You are correct... but a speedy trip to work isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution.

right to assemble peaceably - not in a public thoroughfare, deliberately blocking traffic. You can read the Con as you wish, but no court in 214 years agrees with a right to obstruct public thoroughfares.

	22-05-2003 03:35									#82
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Lord of the Mark, I am not so sure that Che does not have a case. If the building was condemned only that morning of the raid, the raid appears to have been a sham. If so, it violated the 4th Amendment.

Che, assuming that the raid was an illegal search and siezure, how did the raid impair the commies 1st amendment rights?

	22-05-2003 03:36									#83
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark They are interested in DIRECT ACTION, not in participating in a Millsian debate. Bastards.

If we were allowed to be part of the debate maybe you'd have a point. We aren't, so we must make ourselves heard by other, Constitutionally protected methods.

	22-05-2003 03:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Lord of the Mark, I am not so sure that Che does not have a case. If the building was condemned only that morning of the raid, the raid appears to have been a sham. If so, it violated the 4th Amendment. Che, assuming that the raid was an illegal search and siezure, how did the raid impair the commies 1st amendment rights?

By putting them in jail so they couldn't attend the protest. Also, their puppets were confiscated, which means they were prevented from engaging in a form or political satire. And please, while I know you want to deride them as commie, they're anarchists, not commies.

	22-05-2003 03:40									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When was the last demonstration your heard of in the US when protestors threw rocks? We've all heard about violent protestors, but these are usually people who are assaulting police nightsticks with their heads and police tear gas with their lungs. The sling shot is indeed suspicious, but most likely it is for exactly what I said, flinging the police's own weapons back at them.

LA Times, on the Seattle riots

" According to police, a group of 200 to 300 WTO protesters -- edged out of downtown by the curfew -- moved into the streets of Capitol Hill, where they blocked two major intersections and threatened officers with rocks, bottles and Molotov cocktails. Several windows at local businesses were smashed. At least some protesters charged the police line, department spokesmen said. "

	22-05-2003 03:40									#86
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Imran, I shouldn't have to lecture to you on law. Standing in a street is not a violent action... I fail to see how a protest that blocks a street isn't a peaceful assembly.

I'm simply doing an analysis of the Bill of Rights.

oh and Imran, the Constitution sets out limitations for holding public office... restrictions for anything other than the minimum requirements are unconstitutional. So yeah, banning Commies from office is a violation of Civil Rights.

I sure hope you are at the beginning of your law program, because it seems like you have a lot to learn.

	22-05-2003 03:41									#87
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark right to assemble peaceably - not in a public thoroughfare, deliberately blocking traffic. You can read the Con as you wish, but no court in 214 years agrees with a right to obstruct public thoroughfares.

If you read it that way, the right to peacably assemble doesn't exist, as there is no way more than three people can gather at any location without impeding the flow of traffic.

BTW, the protest was in a park.

	22-05-2003 03:42									#88
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quote: www.michealmoore.com He is a liberal pundit, whose straightforward approach won him an Academy Award for Bowling for Columbine.

An award supposedly for NON-FICTION, an award he should be required to return since so much of it was fiction.

Sava -

quote: You are correct... but a speedy trip to work isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution.

The freedom to assemble is not a freedom to block others. Would you agree that abortion protestors should be allowed to block abortion clinics?

	22-05-2003 03:42									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we were allowed to be part of the debate maybe you'd have a point. We aren't, so we must make ourselves heard by other, Constitutionally protected methods.

they can publoish papers, post to the internet and do everything else they want. So they dont get an oped piece in the NYT, that gives them the right to break the law? And no, what they did in seattle and dc is not constitutionally protected.

	22-05-2003 03:43									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you read it that way, the right to peacably assemble doesn't exist, as there is no way more than three people can gather at any location without impeding the flow of traffic. BTW, the protest was in a park.

not the protests in seattle and DC, which the police expected to be copied.