25-05-2003 20:58									#31
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Coming from you Fez, i am flattered. I must be saying the right things if you think they are wrong.

Lets take your arguemn: Iran is the most conservative. lets then take another regime, lets say..I don't know,, saudi arabia. Lets compare:

Last major parlimentary elections?
Iran: 1999 I believe.
SA: never

Can women drive cars?
Iran: yes
SA: no

Do reformist papers exist?
Iran: yes
SA: no

Cna Women get degrees?
Iran: yes
SA: no.

Opposed the Taliban regime in Afghanistan?
Iran: yes
SA: no.

Iran is not a westerns syle democracy. It is a theocratic republic, and certainly the hard-liners are fighting back. BUt the fact that hardliners face a fight, that an opposition, which made electoral gains seems to me to be more than self-evident proof that Iran is not only not the most conservative regime in the region but that it is more progressive internally politically than several US allies in the Mideast.

	25-05-2003 21:03									#32
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I wonder if the US is trying to pull of the same feat they pulled with Syria and bluff Iran into turning these people over: http://www-cgi.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/m...2/alqaeda.iran/

	25-05-2003 21:03									#33
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Yes DanS, a positive comparison to saudi arabi does matter. After all, we are allies of one, and continue to call the other "evil". If you want to know why people look at American like hypocrites in the world, there is your answer.

Politically, Iran is ahead not only of SA, but a place like Egypt, which is as, if not more, politically repressive than Iran.

	25-05-2003 21:05									#34
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Eli, Edan: before I start a meaningless arguing about if Turkey belongs to the ME or Jordania is a relevant regional player, I made a small change in my entire post.

Fez: itīs amazing that a facist like you are complains about the human right situation in a developing country, which is in an appearent progress to more civilisation and democracy.
if you havenīt noticed yet, Khomeini is dead since 1989 and since then the country has significantally changed. what do you expect, anyway? Iran was at war with Iraq for 8 long years. and btw. itīs common knowledge that Iraq and not Iran was the agressor.
after the islamic revolution in 1979, Iran may have turned to an evil regime. but if you compare the situation with countries in Europe after a revolution then you will find out, that there usually is an era of anarchy, corruption and barbarism. see what happened to France under Robbespierre or Britain under Cromwell. democracy didnīt develop itself from one day to another. Iran is obviously on a good way and meanwhile it made its way out of the international isolation and became an important stabilizing factor in the region.

what do you know about Iran anyway, Fez? can you name me any civil war in Iran? do you know about any threat, that goes out of Iran? is Iran agressive or irrational in anyway?
methinks you only hate muslims in general for being not compatible to your ideology and thatīs why you you also hate Iran. it wouldnīt even matter which muslimic country the US is currently focusing, you just go with it.

Shi:

quote: We are rasing emnity, while they are supporting Al Qaeda!?

well, Washington spread the rumor, that Iraq would have huge amounts of WMDs and support Al Quaeda. they justified the war with it and now it seems to turn out that Washington was wrong.
just claiming a terrorist connection is still enough for you to belive the dumbest BS that comes out of the pentagon?
Ignorance Is Strengh, eh?

quote: I don't see how you call Iran a civlized and progressive country. That country is still a well known supporter of terrorism(Hezbollah, etc.) and is still a theocracy.

according to CIA, Iran is a theocratic republic. I have no idea why anyone should have a problem with it. they even have a women suffrage.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...ok/geos/ir.html

actually, Shi, I still donīt know, if your postings are only ironic attacks or if you really believe in everything you write.

	25-05-2003 21:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS and that would be its democracy Roland: In the article that I cited a couple of weeks ago, they said Armitage said it was a democracy. That quote doesn't say Iran is a democracy by a long stretch.

And what does: "I would note there's one dramatic difference between Iran and the other two axes of evil, and that would be its democracy. [And] you approach a democracy differently"

mean then, if translated from Washingtonian into plain english? Or the other way round....

	25-05-2003 21:11									#36
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Another thing to note is that Iran's nuclear program is supported by both the reformers and the hardliners. But the target is Israel, not the United States directly. We think we could make a deal with the reformers, if they took over all of the executive ministries of the country.

	25-05-2003 21:13									#37
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Hershell: One says that it's a democracy. The other says that it has democratic elements. We approach the democratic elements within Iran (Khatami) differently than we do the mullahs.

	25-05-2003 21:13									#38
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Why woundn't Iranians want nukes? They are the last state to have WMD;s used against them. they have 1 immidiate nuclear neighbor, and 3 others in the general vacitnity (Russia, Israel, India) wth nukes as well. If I were an Iranian, I would want nukes.

	25-05-2003 21:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GP Yeah, well you also think that Versailles created Hitler. That might even be irrelevant. It didn't stop us from killing your countrymen after Nuremburg.

You still don't understand the difference between cause and guilt, fine. But please stop trolling me with your intellectual nanism.

	25-05-2003 21:15									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I doubt even then. We've already adopted two countries already. I don't see how Bush can sell to the country adopting another.

The Bush team is the best in recent years at engineering crises and having most of the country dutifully go along. He's probably kicking himself over that damned FDR amendment.

**********

Oedo - you are wrong about Iraq being the aggressor in the Iran-Iraq war in all but the most technical sense.

After Khomeini came in, Iran abrogated bilateral agreements on the al Faw peninsula and use of the Shatt al Arab waterway, sent agents into Iraq to foment rebellion among the Iraqi Shiites, and sent other agents into Iraq to assassinate Iraqi officials and Iraqi Shiite leaders who weren't sympathetic to Iranian "leadership." This sort of thing went on for nearly a year, and the Hussein government initially tried diplomatic solutions, but the Khomeini folks weren't real interested. Hussein didn't do this because he was a nice guy, of course, he did it because he knew the Iranians would have his lunch in any military conflict, unless he had massive help. (which the US and the Arab world gave)

	25-05-2003 21:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Hershell: One says that it's a democracy. The other says that it has democratic elements. We approach the democratic elements within Iran differently than we do the mullahs.

Now that's some heavy sophistry.

But ok, he said "its democracy", not its "democratic elements". If he meant the latter, why didn't he say it (assuming the quote is correct)? And why does he say "you approach a democracy differently", not "you approach a country with cemocratic elements" differently?

Your interpretation is within the realm of the wording, but far from the single convincing one, not even very convincing IMO.

	25-05-2003 21:24									#42
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Well, it does have a democracy. But that democracy is relegated to the least powerful ministries. In Lenin's terms, the "commanding heights" of the country are controlled by the mullahs. If you control the commanding heights (heavy industry by Lenin), who cares if you have a free market in agricultural goods?

	25-05-2003 21:27									#43
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Who's talking about free markets?

Anyway, the quote you initially criticized was an at least reasonable reflection of his comment, or?

	25-05-2003 21:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The Bush team is the best in recent years at engineering crises and having most of the country dutifully go along.

Funny, ain't it?
Afghanistan is still a mess, and the Bushies have already made more mistakes in Iraq than even I expected from them. So their usual strategy would point towards Iran or Syria - "If you're in a hole, dig a bigger one"

"He's probably kicking himself over that damned FDR amendment."

I wouldn't be surprised - his friends of the SC will find some creative way around it...

	25-05-2003 21:31									#45
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No. It misquoted him.

The free markets is an analogy. Lenin's control economy relied on control of the most important portions of economic activity--at his time these were heavy industry. But it left the other, less important parts (in his mind) free.

The mullahs are controlling the commanding heights of the country as they see it. Internal/external security, intelligence, the judiciary, etc.

	25-05-2003 21:35									#46
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I know that there are only democratic elements, but literally, that's not what Armitage said. It's likely he meant it, but quoting is different from mindreading/interpreting.

No way you can call that "misquoting".

	25-05-2003 21:38									#47
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"its democracy" is not the same as "it's a democracy". They misquoted him! But why don't we let this pass? I'm tired of arguing it.

	25-05-2003 21:52									#48
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Man you have some odd way of interpreting things.

	25-05-2003 21:54									#49
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Well, I do feel free to interpret it that way, especially because that's what he meant.

	25-05-2003 21:58									#50
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That's one thing. But claiming that a text that was much closer to the original wording is a "misquote" is another.

	25-05-2003 22:02									#51
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Ugh!!! I give up! I should know better than to argue wording with an attorney!

	25-05-2003 22:10									#52
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Well, it's not like we couldn't see this one coming. Unlike Iraq, Iran actually has a good program for nuclear weapons. However, I'm not sure if attacking Iran is the right move to do now. Eventually, maybe. Now? I'm not sure.. I think we should handle NK and SA first, then concentrate on others. Iran and Syria are on the list, but not so important IMO.

I thought US promised not to attack Iran next in exhange for Iran not disturbing attack on Iraq?
Oh well..

I have to wonder what is going on in ME. When do these countries realize that they will be demolished one by one? I think they know that, maybe they are wishing it wasn't true.. Anyway, I'd save Iran for later, IMO there are more important targets in hands right now. Like NK. They're actually challenging and badmouthing us, and they do have power to really mess up things and they are just being outright hostile. What are we going to do about it? What about Saudi Arabia, undoubtetly Al Qaeda hot spot like no other?

	25-05-2003 22:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Ugh!!! I give up! I should know better than to argue wording with an attorney!

Near sig material

	25-05-2003 22:16									#54
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quote: Anyway, I'd save Iran for later, IMO there are more important targets in hands right now.

	25-05-2003 22:18									#55
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How many of you have actually talked to an Iranian about this?

	25-05-2003 22:20									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The Bush team is the best in recent years at engineering crises and having most of the country dutifully go along. He's probably kicking himself over that damned FDR amendment. ********** Oedo - you are wrong about Iraq being the aggressor in the Iran-Iraq war in all but the most technical sense. After Khomeini came in, Iran abrogated bilateral agreements on the al Faw peninsula and use of the Shatt al Arab waterway, sent agents into Iraq to foment rebellion among the Iraqi Shiites, and sent other agents into Iraq to assassinate Iraqi officials and Iraqi Shiite leaders who weren't sympathetic to Iranian "leadership." This sort of thing went on for nearly a year, and the Hussein government initially tried diplomatic solutions, but the Khomeini folks weren't real interested. Hussein didn't do this because he was a nice guy, of course, he did it because he knew the Iranians would have his lunch in any military conflict, unless he had massive help. (which the US and the Arab world gave)

Well considering that 80% of the Democrats in the Senate didn't even want to take action in Gulf War 1...

	25-05-2003 22:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You still don't understand the difference between cause and guilt, fine. But please stop trolling me with your intellectual nanism.

1. As soon as you stop throwing indefinite one-liner tossaways into discussions.

2. FYI: I used the word "create", your word. I actually checked and made sure of it ahead of time, cause I knew you would get into that. And read my second sentence of the post and then think about it. I anticipated your kvetch.

3. Oh...and things in Germany worked out a lot better after we went in and did the more explicit regime change.

	25-05-2003 22:26									#58
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"As soon as you stop throwing indefinite one-liner tossaways into discussions."

Why should I stop that.

"And read my second sentence of the post and then think about it. I anticipated your kvetch."

Which means you still don't understand it.

"Oh...and things in Germany worked out a lot better after we went in and did the more explicit regime change."

Indeed. Which has squat to do with the current situation.

	25-05-2003 22:29									#59
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My comments have as much relevance as yours. And are less cryptic. You love tossing a one-liner in there. Then you can say, "I didn't mean that." Well I can fight dirty too.

	25-05-2003 22:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GP My comments have as much relevance as yours. And are less cryptic. You love tossing a one-liner in there. Then you can say, "I didn't mean that."

Why deny an aging lawyer his few pleasures in life?