25-05-2003 23:32									#92
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The village people surrender?

	25-05-2003 23:33									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka HAHA JUST AS WE THOUGHT!!!

Are we supposed to print out those pictures and make flipbooks of them or something?

	25-05-2003 23:33									#94
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The village people surrender?

Nah, this is the "surrender monkey" smiley of FFZ

	25-05-2003 23:35									#95
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That's supposed to be a Frenchie?

	25-05-2003 23:41									#96
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quote: (...), but thinking everything is is just peachy and democratic in Iran is wrong

truly. I fully agree on this one.

and I´m happy to see, that in the USA, everything is still as peachy as usual:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ratings/usa.htm
Germany and France however:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ngs/germany.htm
http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ings/france.htm

	25-05-2003 23:42									#97
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler That's supposed to be a Frenchie?

Hey, those are FFZians who are drawing this smiley, you can't expect them to be knowledgeable.

	25-05-2003 23:44									#98
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So I'm scared now. Ok, cryptic points. What are you trying to say? When you **** up due to a regime change, try it again?

LOL. yes. And a little bit of "grasp the nettle firmly".
I think I actually understand your tossaway just fine too (see point 2 below). I just don't always agree with you. (But since I haven't performed the arduous "pin Roland down" exercise, who knows...)

---------------------

I would also disagree with a few possible inferences from your message (feel free to say "I didn't mean that"-haha).

1. The regime change 20 years ago wasn't "ours" in the sense of being engineered or of being an invasion. Sure we had a role but there were other actors. It is an oversimplification to call it "our regime change".

2. Just because some bad actions occur, doesn't mean that one still shouldn't take an action. Appeasement avoids a conflict, but it has consequences as well. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture. Our tolerance for Islamic terrorism has gone down since 9-11. In the past we took limited actions against Abu Nidal and OBL and their ilk and their sponsors. Now we will be more aggressive against them. That is a strategic decision. Perhaps even the wrong one. Maybe we should just let things blow over. But that's not what we've decided to do. Time will tell what was right. (Of course we can't reload and test it out with a statistically relevant number of trials using the cheat menu.)

Does that mean we will invade everywhere? No. Does it mean the tripwire is tighter? Yes. Does it mean we will sabre-rattle? Yes.

Some other things to think about :

1. We supported Stalin in WW2 as the lesser of two evils and as the enemy of our enemy. This does not mean that we "created" the gulags. Nor did we create the regime that is in power. Yes, we had an effect on what happened. But we are not the puppet-masters of the universe.

2. Would you have supported the Shah more strongly in 1979? If you are criticising "our" last regime change, does it mean that you would have supported him?

	25-05-2003 23:51									#99
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Hersh: it is not an issue of a country like Iran having to be 100% like the US. Not even refromists in Iran want a state with seperatio of church and state. But in any state where the executive has the power to label political enemies criminals and imprison them is not a fully dmeocrati system. The ruling Ayahtollah is not elected (not even by his fellow clerics), and t is this person that has final and full authority over the armed and security forces of the state. That is a huge limit on how dmeocratic you can call a state. An islamic republic, even a clerical republic are in theory possible, but in the current Iranian model the republic part is too weak, and hard line clerics are too pwoefull, styming the whishes of the people in many respects.

	25-05-2003 23:57									#100
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For me the key questions are:

1. What is the extent of terrorist activity in Iran.
2. To what degree does the government sponsor/tolerate this activity (or cross-border activity).
3. What is the status of their nuclear program?
4. How likely a "bad actor" are they if they get nukes?
5. What methods can we use to restrain/influence Iran?
6. What are the costs and benefits of these actions.

None of these are easy questions. And I know that there are some people who advocate a more agressive policy and some who advocate a more passive one. Also, the policy must of nessecity evolve since the responses of the Iranians are a variable.

	26-05-2003 00:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Fez: it´s amazing that a facist like you are complains about the human right situation in a developing country, which is in an appearent progress to more civilisation and democracy.

Only an absolute idiot would call me a fascist. I am not saying you are one, but saying if you assume that you are one. You don't support democracy, since you are a leftist.

quote: if you haven´t noticed yet, Khomeini is dead since 1989 and since then the country has significantally changed.

Has it? The Mullahs (and they are called mullahs) and Ayatollahs are still in power.

quote: what do you know about Iran anyway, Fez?

Do you? You mumbling fool.

quote: can you name me any civil war in Iran? do you know about any threat, that goes out of Iran? is Iran agressive or irrational in anyway?

Iran has weapons of mass destruction and this is for certain. Iran's program is actually years ahead of Iraqs and is possibly on par with North Korea.

quote: methinks you only hate muslims in general for being not compatible to your ideology and that´s why you you also hate Iran.

Well I happen to 1/4 Moroccan.. and I am always boasting about what the Moors did for Spain. Your rhetoric is full of crap.

I don't hate Iran, I never said I did. I just hate the regime there. Khatami sure.. he is not bad.. but he has little power.

So your are a liar too now?

quote: it wouldn´t even matter which muslimic country the US is currently focusing, you just go with it.

Another foolish statement by the BS master himself.

	26-05-2003 00:18									#102
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well, we know what your last regime change in Iran created about 20 years later.

That was the idiot Carter.

	26-05-2003 00:23									#103
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quote: Originally posted by oedo truly. I fully agree on this one. and I´m happy to see, that in the USA, everything is still as peachy as usual: http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ratings/usa.htm

Expect for the downward trend arrow

quote: Germany and France however: http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ngs/germany.htm http://www.freedomhouse.org/researc...ings/france.htm

Hey look! Their as free as the UNITED KINGDOM

	26-05-2003 00:26									#104
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quote: Another foolish statement by the BS master himself.

	26-05-2003 00:29									#105
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A important question is if there's a chance in hell that the US can get anything that even resembles a "coalition of the willing" that's not clearly fused together with bribes and threats, to attack Iran.

	26-05-2003 00:35									#106
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GP:

"1. The regime change 20 years ago wasn't "ours" in the sense of being engineered or of being an invasion."

"your" regime change was the overthrowing of Mossadeq in the early 50s. Which resulted in the Shah regime. Which resulted in the islamist revolution in 1979.

"Appeasement avoids a conflict, but it has consequences as well."

Who's talking appeasement? Do you see Truman as an appeaser?

	26-05-2003 00:35									#107
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Kropotkin, that will be interesting. Iran doesn't have that Saddam Hussein etc.
I still don't think attacking Iran at this point is wise, or in the next coming few years. I mean, there is al qaeda in US too, what's it gonna do, attack itself? I don't think so.
They should definitely tighten the noose to make Iran work on getting them exposed and caught.. and if they are unwilling.. then attack, but only after more serious threats has been eliminated.

	26-05-2003 00:38									#108
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Well, Tony wouldn't survive being a poodle on this one. I still think he'll be in deep **** once it gets clear how much he lied to justify the Iraq war.

	26-05-2003 00:44									#109
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Iran is not the next target.

Saudi is.

	26-05-2003 00:48									#110
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Saudi? Well, nothing is beyond the idiocy of this administration, but Saudi Arabia is still extremely unlikely.

Why would you think otherwise?

	26-05-2003 00:50									#111
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Iran is not the next target. Saudi is.

No. France is.

	26-05-2003 00:51									#112
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We've already had this conversation elsewhere, remember?

	26-05-2003 00:53									#113
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Explain it again. It was too whacky a conspiracy theory for me to remember.

	26-05-2003 00:53									#114
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Maybe the US will invade Iran in order to invade Saudi-arabia. If the US turned around in Iraq and went the other way, straight back into Saudi-arabia, there's a risk that Iran will attack from behind. So, by first invading Iran, the US will secure its back and it will be much easier to invade Saudi-arabia.

	26-05-2003 00:53									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No. France is.

	26-05-2003 00:55									#116
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Well, no matter how much it hurts them but: The Yanks don't have the balls to go to war against France.

	26-05-2003 00:55									#117
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^(10^5)

	26-05-2003 00:56									#118
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Sorry. The line was too easy to pass up.

	26-05-2003 00:57									#119
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well, no matter how much it hurts them but: The Yanks don't have the balls to go to war against France.

The Germans showed us how relaxing it can be. Wasn't it thier national sport for a while?

	26-05-2003 00:57									#120
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well, no matter how much it hurts them but: The Yanks don't have the balls to go to war against France.

Don't misjudge the Yanks' balls