26-05-2003 01:56									#151
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I find it amazing that anyone here thinks that if at this point the house of Saud falls, that pro-US forces will take over...they won;t. Islamic fundamentalist will,a nd then we are worse off. We are stuck with the porblem of having to continue to back the house of Saud, if from a distance, hoping that the House will make the necessary changes so that when it falls, it will be pre-west moderates, not the Islamists , who take over the oil spigot to what remains without a doubt that biggest reserve of crude oil in the world.

As for Iran: Anthing that allows the Hard liners to move on reformists without suffering too much popularity at home is a Godsend to them, and nothing could be worse than these groups getting money for illicit acts in Iran: that's just an invitation for the hardliners to crack down hard. The admin. should keep it's d1ck in its pants and chill at this point. They have just begun in Iraq, and they aren't doing too well (and that is without mentioning Afghanistan)

	26-05-2003 01:56									#152
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So it's about a little empire building around the oil?

9-11.

	26-05-2003 01:57									#153
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Oh god not again. I suspect the case against Iran is going to be more feeble than Iraq!!! Hopefully this will be the straw that breaks the camels back for the American people, who will come to reason the fallacy of these policies their adminstration is adopting in their name.

Are we going to see another argument based on emotive subjectives, at the expense of reason and logic? Are we going to see the imposition of the US subjective upon an equally valid foreign subjective?

Its really getting rather boring now!

	26-05-2003 01:57									#154
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They want another 9-11?

	26-05-2003 01:58									#155
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you do.

	26-05-2003 01:58									#156
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It's about cutting the balls off the people who attacked us.

	26-05-2003 01:59									#157
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Having said that above.... US presence in Iraq, US presence in Afghanistan, Iran sandwiched in the middle. Its a tactical goldmine for the US. Needless to say, it is still STUPID!!!!

	26-05-2003 02:00									#158
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quote: It's about cutting the balls off the people who attacked us.

who did attack you? Iran?

	26-05-2003 02:01									#159
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GePap, not only do I not believe that Saudi will be taken over by pro-western forces, I am counting on it.

	26-05-2003 02:02									#160
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"you do."

I want another 9-11?
In that case I'd be a Bush fan and beg for the invasion of Iran, Syria and most of all, Saudi Arabia.

"It's about cutting the balls off the people who attacked us."

Iraq? Nope.
Syria? Nope.
Iran? Nope.
Saudi Arabia? Not the regime, but enemies of the regime.

Yup, makes sense.

	26-05-2003 02:02									#161
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"9-11"

Get over it. It was in 2001, this is 2003. Revenge is irrelevant and counter-productive.

"It's about cutting the balls off the people who attacked us"

Hardly. If America wants to incite more terrorism, it is going the right way about it. Warships, billion-dollar jets, military strikes etc, may be effective against a similarly armed foe, but not a few determined individuals, motivated by their pain.

	26-05-2003 02:05									#162
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk It's about cutting the balls off the people who attacked us.

actually it is about multiplying the volunterers in their ranks

	26-05-2003 02:05									#163
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Ummm, am I to take it that the Americans among us actually would support an action against Iran, or any other fallaciously names "axis of evil" country?

	26-05-2003 02:06									#164
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk GePap, not only do I not believe that Saudi will be taken over by pro-western forces, I am counting on it.

I am sorry., but that is absurd. People keep *****ing about Iraq as a counrty the size of California, and you want to take over a country the size of texas? We had Islamist attack us for basing in SA, nowhere near Mecca and medina, and now you want to Invade the land of mecca and Medina, if only the oil fields? Give me a fvcking break: that is beyond the realm of fantasy on your part, but if that is the level you care to function is, well, then reason probalby will fail.

	26-05-2003 02:07									#165
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Well if I understand MM correctly, then the pictures of GIs in Mecca and Medina will turn the islamic world into a peaceloving strawberry field.

Or something like that.

	26-05-2003 02:08									#166
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And SA is 3 times the size of texas.

	26-05-2003 02:08									#167
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quote: , but not a few determined individuals, motivated by their pain.

My heart bleeds for Usama Bin-Laden, and the great grief he had throughout his childhood, being raised up in a poor, working-class neighbourhood, in Ryad, born to a crackhead single-mother.

"Because I am hopeless!"

"Thug life, Boy!"

	26-05-2003 02:09									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The real plan is to build Iraq up into a swing producer. Iraq and Russia would then be swing producers and the fall of Saudi Arabia wouldn't mean the end of the world economically. Right now, if Saudi Arabia decides to embargo, we're Fvcked with a capital F.

DanS has it. Once we have Iraq back up to speed, we can shut down Saudi. Saudi has been holding the purse strings of Islamic terror for a long, long time. All the money that that been flowing from Saudi to all those extremist groups will stop flowing once the oil does.

We can't do that if Saudi remains "friendly".

	26-05-2003 02:10									#169
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Probably Osama is just misunderstood.

Seriously, it seems to be less a matter of pain rather than anger.

	26-05-2003 02:10									#170
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I'm not talking conquest, I'm talking embargo.

	26-05-2003 02:11									#171
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seriously now. we all still don´t know who´s responsible for 9/11. Bin Ladin of course, but no one seems to have a clue who (which goverments) were behind these attacks. I read somewhere that the US admin spent abou 4.000.000 $ to examine the attacks. I don´t know forsure if this is true. but if it were, it would be far less than US officials spend to examine a sperm spot on Monica Lewinski´s dress.
anyone who´s got a link about this fdeel free to post it here. I´m really curious.

the USA can be sure, that all of their allies would help them in their war on terror if they would present a clear and comprehensive link. up to now they only abuse these attacks to blame anyone, who just came into their mind. that´s why so many people are that angry about the Bushies.

	26-05-2003 02:12									#172
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It makes one wonder at this stage why such a government would pursue such a politically suicidal, morally idiotic and diplomatically unsound action as this. I find myself doubting the power of money and greed being sufficient to drive men of "government" to such actions. I find myself laughing at the prospect of such actions being taken in the name of patriotism and self-preservation, the former being a fallacy as we all surely know, and the latter being a gross misinterpretation of the tactical situation.

I keep telling myself that history will, as it always has done, judge these actions to be erroneous.

	26-05-2003 02:12									#173
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Dan:

You Dansed that in, did you not...

"Right now, if Saudi Arabia decides to embargo, we're Fvcked with a capital F."

I'm not so sure it would be devastating for us. It would be definately devastating for Saudi Arabia, though.

	26-05-2003 02:14									#174
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Indeed.

	26-05-2003 02:14									#175
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I'm not talking conquest, I'm talking embargo.

If you embargo Saudi Arabia, you can bet your ass on having a fundamentalist regime there.

Why would that be so benefecial?

PS: Any why would Europe join an embargo?

	26-05-2003 02:15									#176
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"My heart bleeds for Usama Bin-Laden, and the great grief he had throughout his childhood, being raised up in a poor, working-class neighbourhood, in Ryad, born to a crackhead single-mother"

I speak more of the pain and misery in the communities that terrorists come from. Dont judge them by your own economic paramaters, one must also factor in the brotherhood nature of religious unity. The Islamic community, particularly in the middle-eastern nations are in much pain. One can hardly be suprised that terrorism occurs. What is the solution? Hardly to deepen the wound, but to heal it with a better foreign policy.

	26-05-2003 02:17									#177
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And just ot answer to those questions of what should we do?

- first of all you should have rebuilt Afghanistan, and now you or the "western world" has two countries to rebuild...

if we don't focus on that we will have only enemies to kill, still new times bring greater challeneges as Mr Bush said

quote: Our country has faced many tests and accomplished a great deal. But we still have so much to do to make our world more peaceful and America more compassionate that I intend to seek a second term as your President.

Invading Iran would surely make our world more peaceful place or is it the opposite

	26-05-2003 02:18									#178
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DanS's plan is singularly dumb.

1. Unless economci growth worldwide becomes stangnant, oil demand will conitnue to grow. It will take years for Iraq to even challenge SA as a suplier of oil.

2. That plan assumes little political problems in Iraq, mainly northern Iraq. That is yet to be seen.

3. The Russians have been acting in concert with OPEC to keep oil prices at a certain level. They do not gain from a glut in the world oil market.

4. US oil companies make billions in SA, and they would not be very keen in losing those contracts, and billion of dollars.

5. The saudis have twice as much oil as Iraq. They are the ones with the largest reserves. As long as the world wants oil, they saudis will be making money. And as long as they have the world largest oil reservesd, bar none, any political upheavals in iraq will send Oil rpices through the roof.

	26-05-2003 02:18									#179
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Probably Osama is just misunderstood. Seriously, it seems to be less a matter of pain rather than anger.

:there it is the Bushites surely cannot understand where is the guy coming from... actually they seem to have the same goal - both of the parties - the world vs Islam, and Bush might finally accomplish that " Arab Union" goal that so many Islamic fundamentalists strived for, it was only Osama that got lucky and got Bush to support him, there is no better way for reunion than a common enemy .

	26-05-2003 02:19									#180
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The problem the extremist have is not volunteers -- they already have plenty of those. The problem is materiel -- weapons, equipment, training facilities, transportation. Money is the controling factor to their effectiveness. Remove the money, and you remove their power.