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Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:08 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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Just read this from Yahoo news: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...aq_wolfowitz_dc

quote:


LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The U.S. decision to stress the threat posed by Iraq (news - web sites)'s supposed weapons of mass destruction above all others was taken for "bureaucratic" reasons to justify the war, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was quoted as saying in remarks released on Wednesday.

Wolfowitz, seen as one of the most hawkish figures in the Bush administration's policy on Iraq, said President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s alleged cache of chemical, biological and possibly nuclear weapons was merely one of several reasons behind the decision to go to war.

"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," Wolfowitz was quoted as saying in Vanity Fair magazine's July issue.

No chemical or biological weapons have been found in Iraq despite repeated assertions by President Bush (news - web sites) and British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) before the March 20 invasion that the threat posed by Saddam's vast stocks of banned weapons warranted a war to eliminate them.

The United Nations (news - web sites) and America's allies were not convinced by the argument that it was justification for a war, which was launched amid protests in many world capitals. Washington's ties were major allies France and Germany are still strained.

Wolfowitz said another reason for the invasion had been "almost unnoticed but huge" -- namely that the ousting of Saddam would allow the United States to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia, where their presence had long been a major al Qaeda grievance.

"Just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to open the door" to a more peaceful Middle East, Wolfowitz was quoted as saying.

The magazine said he made the remarks days before suicide bombings, attributed to al Qaeda, against Western targets in Riyadh and Casablanca two weeks ago that killed 75 people.

The United States announced last month that it was ending military operations in Saudi Arabia, where they have long generated Arab resentment because of their proximity to Islam's holiest sites.

Wolfowitz's remarks were released a day after Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, seeking to explain why no weapons of mass destruction had been found, said Iraq may have destroyed them before the U.S.-led invasion.




So, now, all that about WMD was all pure BS, as I suspected from day one.

Now the excuse was to save $$ from deploying in Saudi Arabia. Sorry, that's still no reason to launch a war and topple a regime. Considering the Cold War cost more than all other wars in history combined, why didn't the US just obliterate Russia back in the day and save all those trillions??

All this just proves is that the US blatantly misled the world about WMD (of course, preferable phrasing is "bureacratic reasons") when there were other intentions behind it. Should I find reasons to believe the US any more in the future? Hell no!

Well, I never did anyway...

"All of us have heard this term 'preventive war' since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time...I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."

-USA President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953, upon being presented with plans to wage preventive war to disarm Stalin's Soviet Union

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:10
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Yep - now let all the Apolyton Conservatives repeat after me.

"Bush was full of ****".

"Bush lied and we fell for it"

"The Lefties told us he was lying, but we were too dumb to believe them"

"We won't believe what Bush tells us again."

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
Emperor
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Feb 2002
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:11 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Yep - now let all the Apolyton Conservatives repeat after me.

"Bush was full of ****".

"Bush lied and we fell for it"

"The Lefties told us he was lying, but we were too dumb to believe them"

"We won't believe what Bush tells us again."


You don't want much do you?



ACK!

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:12 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Well Agathon, at least I wasn't defending Fidel Castro. Even my sister, who is a socialist, can't stand that stupid son of b*tch.

Anyways... back to the point.. what excuse? I don't see any excuse here. I see reasons.

And you lefties are hardly the people to trust when it comes to lying or not. I grant it to you, you are the experts at lying.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:12
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The world is better off without Saddam running a country. Just admiting that little fact will help you start upon the road to letting go of your hate.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Well Agathon, at least I wasn't defending Fidel Castro. Even my sister, who is a socialist, can't stand that stupid son of b*tch.

Anyways... back to the point.. what excuse? I don't see any excuse here. I see reasons.

And you lefties are hardly the people to trust when it comes to lying or not. I grant it to you, you are the experts at lying.


Fidel is a great man. HLVS!

Anyway, gotta run I hear the sound of approaching helicopters....

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:14 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Can the US at least do some decent state-building this time around? I am not impressed with the way it abandoned Afghanistan (or the way it verbally abused Canada, Germany, Belgium, etc. despite the fact that we are picking up the pieces after it in Aghaniland).

reds4ever is offline reds4ever
Prince
of the Spion Kop
Mar 2001
time: 05:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:15
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Zen

your Eisenhower quote is interesting, do you know roughly what was the timeframe when the US had atomic weapons but the USSR did not (ie when the hawks plan would have been feasible)?

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The world is better off without Saddam running a country. Just admiting that little fact will help you start upon the road to letting go of your hate.


Yeah - did you see the sewage filled streets today? And the Kurds and Arabs shooting each other? And the guy buying a loaf of bread with a sack full of banknotes? And the pissed off Iraquis shooting at the troops?

A great place for a holiday. Wish you were there.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:16 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The world is better off without Saddam running a country. Just admiting that little fact will help you start upon the road to letting go of your hate.


same recycled moral excuse... try thinking of a new one next time...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by reds4ever
Zen....?


Best sig I've seen on Apolyton so far R4E. Pity my beloved Newcastle beat them out for the CL next season. Heh heh....

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
time: 05:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:18 Visit oedo's homepage!
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well, at least we all -including the conservatives- should agree that this kind of politics shouldn´t become the accepted thing.

it´s like a pool game I recently played. I was the one who finished the black ball. however I shot it into another hole than I announced before. that´s why I lost.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:19 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Fidel is a great man. HLVS!

Anyway, gotta run I hear the sound of approaching helicopters....


What would you say if you were one of those dissidents who was executed?

Nice man indeed.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:19 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by reds4ever
Zen

your Eisenhower quote is interesting, do you know roughly what was the timeframe when the US had atomic weapons but the USSR did not (ie when the hawks plan would have been feasible)?


yes, the US had a nuclear monopoly from 1945-1949. However, the fact that the US still had vastly superior delivery systems (i.e. long-range bombers) gave them an advantage for many years after. Still, the USSR could have launched some limited nuclear strike against Europe which might have been politically unacceptable, hence the beginning of deterrence.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
time: 00:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez

What would you say if you were one of those dissidents who was executed?


This:

"Wow I was really stupid and evil to try and undercut the Cuban revolution so that Cubans could go back to being the slaves of the US and our children could spend the day in sweatshops instead of going to school."

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
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Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:23 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by oedo
well, at least we all -including the conservatives- should agree that this kind of politics shouldn´t become the accepted thing.



Very well put

Whatever the end, such kinds of actions are simply barbarous in this supposedly enlightened XXI century. To think politicians 50 years ago made more sense...

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:26
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Slaves of the US?

I suppose you feel the Euros who work for GM's Vauxhaull & Opel subsideries are "slaves of the US" and that Americans who work for Toyota or Honda are slave's of Japan?

Man is that a screwed up way of looking at things.

reds4ever is offline reds4ever
Prince
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Mar 2001
time: 05:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Best sig I've seen on Apolyton so far R4E. Pity my beloved Newcastle beat them out for the CL next season. Heh heh....


Cheers, he was a funny guy.

Newcastle could be challeging next season, Dabisas (sp) needs to go and maybe another striker to take the pressure of an ageing Shearer and young Bellamy.

cyclotron7 is offline cyclotron7
King
Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
What would you say if you were one of those dissidents who was executed?


Well, not a whole lot.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:26 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


This:

"Wow I was really stupid and evil to try and undercut the Cuban revolution so that Cubans could go back to being the slaves of the US and our children could spend the day in sweatshops instead of going to school."


That is some of the biggest bullshit I ever heard.

You know Fidel has been doing exactly that. Making Cuba into a feudal state with slave like conditions. That is why so many people are trying to leave.

Do you really have to be this arrogant?

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
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Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:27 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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great, my thread has turned into another Castro debate...

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:27 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by cyclotron7


Well, not a whole lot.


Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
great, my thread has turned into another Castro debate...


We're bored of the Bush trolls any way.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
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Jan 2003
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:29 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by reds4ever


Cheers, he was a funny guy.

Newcastle could be challeging next season, Dabisas (sp) needs to go and maybe another striker to take the pressure of an ageing Shearer and young Bellamy.


Yeah, what happened to Premier clubs at this year's CL?? Surprising considering how unexpectedly good the Italians did. Perhaps next year they'll do better.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:31 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


We're bored of the Bush trolls any way.



Having continually losing arguements tends to be boring, I agree....

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:34
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You would know.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
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Apr 2000
time: 00:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:34
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I never denied that Saddam presented no threat to us. Agathon, I will repeat after you once:

Bush was full of ****.

However I knew that already.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:35
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Zen -
quote:
Now the excuse was to save $$ from deploying in Saudi Arabia.


I didn't see money mentioned by Wolfowitz, only that getting our troops out of Saudi Arabia was desired because of Muslim holy sites in the area.

Btw, I was skeptical of the Bush administration's excuse for invasion - WMD - not because I thought Saddam didn't have any, I suspect he did have them, but because the proof was tenuous at best. But I'm still willing to give the troops time to find them, and I hope that if they do, the proof will be overwhelming so I won't have reason to suspect the "cops" of planting evidence.

Last edited by Berzerker on 29-05-2003 at 05:41

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:36 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
You would know.


really? why?

history seems to be proving me right

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2003 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by reds4ever


Cheers, he was a funny guy.

Newcastle could be challeging next season, Dabisas (sp) needs to go and maybe another striker to take the pressure of an ageing Shearer and young Bellamy.


Yeah YBR is a great manager. I really like all the kids they've got coming up too. Agreed on Dabizas, he's a liability.

I hope Liverpool do better next season. I really think they are due for a break out soon. I can't stand the idea of Manure winning again.

 
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