20-06-2003 22:16									#61
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20% seems to match experience.

	20-06-2003 22:34									#62
	Got spare money?

do multiple dips increase chances?

	20-06-2003 23:47									#63
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No

	21-06-2003 02:23									#64
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I wonder if the guy who attacked the buffalo built ships to kill them whales and fish.

Not that it matters since I never posted about it, but I knew about the Oedo pattern for a long time. I just figured people knew about it even though I should have known otherwise since I can remember playing people who complained about spending several turns in anarchy.

I am using hutfinder now , but there were a number of things I learned from our get together if only I could remember them all. Oh yeah, getting 5 beakers of science from the first 2 cities (2x prod) to get the first tech in 2 turns, etc. And actually counting the compiled beakers so I'd know when the tech I was researching would be found.

I didn't know your chances of getting a nomad increased if you already got one nomad and built a city.

	21-06-2003 02:25									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Well... the book claims 20% for diplos and 40% for spies... but frankly... the odds don't seem to be that high, or at least it rarely works for me.

You can't be suggesting the manual contains errors.

	21-06-2003 03:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike You can't be suggesting the manual contains errors.

	21-06-2003 03:50									#67
	Diplos in your cities work well Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

at least if they are veterans. I a recent game I had diplos in near all cities and they repelled around 80% of the attacks)not 20%). All was veterans I had Sun Tzu.

Last edited by winzity on 23-06-2003 at 05:08

	21-06-2003 04:30									#68
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The manual does not state that veteran diplos are any better than non vets. And as far as Vet Spies go, it states that they have a 60% chance of catching fellow envoys...

	21-06-2003 12:08									#69
	HEHE Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Good game exercises give more than only reading does

	22-06-2003 09:48									#70
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quote: Originally posted by winzity at least if they are veterans. I a recent game I had fiplos in near all cities and they repelled around 80% of the attacks)not 20%). All was veterans I had Sun Tzu.

Sun Tzu doesn't give vet diplos. or fiplos as you call them

Communism makes vet spies.

	22-06-2003 22:41									#71
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A couple month ago I started a thread where I asked why an AI don't want to swap maps although Worshipful. Do you know the answer?

quote: Originally posted by atawa Btw, did someone calculate the corruption/waste in relation to the distance to your cap?

Did you ever hear about Apolyton's GL?

quote: Originally posted by rah Let's see, there was also a person that didn't know that if your food bin was full, that the city would still grow if you had a negative food production (as long as the the new worker would cover the the negative)

That's not true, the new worker needn't cover the negative. You can totally ignore food when you grow.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 22-06-2003 at 22:46

	22-06-2003 22:47									#72
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Another one:

quote: Originally posted by atawa do multiple dips increase chances?

quote: Originally posted by rah No

But yes.

	23-06-2003 05:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker That's not true, the new worker needn't cover the negative. You can totally ignore food when you grow.

Right! The reason is that the current city size is decided before the resources (food, shields, trade and so on) are updated. Please see my post above!

	23-06-2003 17:23									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Another one: But yes.

Maybe for spies, but everytime I've tested it with dips, there has been no significant difference.

Tested human vs human in an MP game. Others are welcome to try an replicate it. Any test done with an AI involved or in SP mode will not be considered valid.

	23-06-2003 17:54									#75
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You are probably both right.

	23-06-2003 18:08									#76
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It would be nice toget a solid answer though. I didn't test with a lot of rigor. I'm lazy.

	23-06-2003 18:30									#77
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How lazy were you? I expect ST is right for SP, but you may also be right for MP...........quite a lot more annoying to test though.

	23-06-2003 19:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike ..........quite a lot more annoying to test though.

Yep,

	23-06-2003 19:59									#79
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You didn't indicate how lazy you meant by lazy.

Did you test it properly, or do you mean your prior from playing is that there is no effect?

	23-06-2003 20:33									#80
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No, I actually did a test. Tried to steal against one dip, then against three dips. My laziness was that we tried only about 10 for each. If I remember correctly, the number for thwarting was exactly the same in both circumstances. 10 was no where near enough, but the other players showed up, and playing is always more important than testing.

RAH

	23-06-2003 21:55									#81
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Theoretically the probablility of success for 3 dips should be 0.8*0.8*0.8

	23-06-2003 22:25									#82
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Of course multiple offensive dips provide a higher overall chance of success.......but we were discussing whether additional defensive dips raise the chances of foiling the offensive diplo.

	23-06-2003 22:28									#83
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And slightly more pickily using your methodology would mean multiple dips always have less chance than a sole dip.........since multiplying makes the probability smaller.

	23-06-2003 22:34									#84
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HAHAHAHAH.
Yep, I believe addition is more appropriate in that equation.

And I'm glad that he was talking about offensive use, since nobody has claimed a defensive improvement for a long time.

RAH

	23-06-2003 22:44									#85
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quote: Originally posted by rah HAHAHAHAH. Yep, I believe addition is more appropriate in that equation.

Almost,.......the actual probability of success with 3 offensive dips is 0.8 + 0.8*0.2 + 0.2^2*0.8 = 99%

So if you fail with 3 you know it is not your night.

	23-06-2003 23:47									#86
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Opps, yes.. Senior moment.

I thought I tried multiples once on someone and they both failed. I was thinking that the seed number didn't change on an attempt so no matter how many times you tried without changing the seed, you failed. You would have to do something inbetween that did change the seed.

	23-06-2003 23:57									#87
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quote: Originally posted by rah I thought I tried multiples once on someone and they both failed. I was thinking that the seed number didn't change on an attempt so no matter how many times you tried without changing the seed, you failed. You would have to do something inbetween that did change the seed.

Hmm that is possible, but you could just have been unlucky (4% chance if the 2 tries are independent).

Is there a precedent with seed saving in a similar situation in Civ2?

	24-06-2003 00:01									#88
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Don't know of any off the top of my head, but I too figured the Odds were way against it if they were independent, so I started to think of ways it could be dependent and could only come up with the seed not changing. The only thing that makes sense is that if you had movement points left you might try again, and it would be silly if you succeeded with the same diplo a second time. So maybe the programmers thought of that and didn't change the seed on an attempt.

Sounds like we need some testing *sigh*.

	24-06-2003 02:15									#89
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0.8*0.8*0.8 is probability of successsss with 3 defending dips. It is like the attacking dip has to walk around each defending dip.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 24-06-2003 at 02:23

	24-06-2003 02:42									#90
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You've lost me mate.