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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:28
Wink  Old Post 30-05-2003 01:17
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#1 Report this post to a moderator
China Cracks Down on TwentySomethings Got spare money?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/29/i...29CND-BEIJ.html


quote:

4 Men Jailed in China Accused of 'Subverting State Power'
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL


BEIJING, May 29 — Four young friends who met on university campuses to discuss their progressive politics and posted occasional essays on the Internet were sentenced here to long prison terms on Wednesday, accused of "subverting state power."

The Beijing Intermediate People's Court sentenced Xu Wei, 28, and Jin Haike, 26, to 10 years. Yang Zilin, 32, and Zhang Honghai, 29, received sentences of 8 years, according to human rights groups and relatives of the men.

The case has long enraged human rights advocates, in part because the group's activities were so innocuous and in part because the four men have been imprisoned for over two years without a verdict in their trial.

Calling the verdict "sickening," Mr. Yang's wife, Lu Kun, said in a telephone interview: "The all said they were innocent. They said that everything they said and wrote was within the limits of what is permitted by the Constitution."

The four were first detained on March 13, 2001, just months after they had formed the "New Youth Study Group," a small coterie of like-minded friends who met occasionally outdoors at Beijing University to discuss political change in China, according to friends. The meetings involved well under a dozen people.

While group members generally agreed that China needed a multiparty democracy, press freedom and free elections, their discussions and their Internet essays were about political theory. The group had no plans to actively foment change.

Still, in China, such groups are supposed to be registered with the state.

The verdicts amply illustrate that in this one-party Communist dictatorship, publicly raising the notion of alternative political systems still carries unpredictable risks.

But many rights advocates and China scholars considered the harsh sentences curious, given that many of the liberal ideas expressed by the men in the "New Youth Study Group" are regularly published in academic journals here and are the fodder of discussions in university classrooms.

"It is ridiculous that the Chinese government considers the peaceful expression of one's views a subversive act," Ann Cooper, the executive director of the Committee to Protect Journalists, said in a statement. "These four young writers have already wasted more than two years of their lives detained in legal limbo."

Before their detentions Xu Wei was a reporter for The Consumer Daily, Jin Haike was a geologist, Yang Zili was a computer entrepreneur and Zhang Honghai was a freelance writer.

The four were detained after another member of the group informed China's State Security Bureau about their activities. It is unclear why the verdict took nearly two years to decide, since the initial hearing took place in September 2001.

While China's criminal procedure code stipulates time limits to prevent such extended detentions, these limits do not apply in cases where the police claim that breaches of state security are involved. Relatives of the men have not been able to visit them in prison, seeing them only at occasional courtroom hearings leading up to the trial, said Ms. Lu. She said the prosecutors had produced no new evidence since the initial hearing nearly two years ago.

She also added that the four seemed to be in poor physical health, having lost weight while in jail. Xu Wei, who received a 10-year sentence, became very agitated in the courtroom, claiming he had been beaten and denied his right to see a lawyer.

"He said he didn't plan to go on living and lunged at the trial stand," said Ms Lu. "About five or six police officers jumped on him and dragged him away."


Why now? Right, the Olympics. Nearly forgot.

Why so harsh?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 01:26
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#2 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

Wonder what UR will say about this?

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 01:27
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Inflate your Upload Space

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I TELL YOU!

-Arrian

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Wonder what UR will say about this?


Whatever the "official" line is. Obviously he won't want to join them.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 01:35
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China's government has always been a bunch of tugs and they will always be a bunch of thugs.

At least they no longer execute or starve to death millions just because of their political beliefs. Great leap backwards is more like it...

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 02:01
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#6 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

PRC

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 02:59
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"While China's criminal procedure code stipulates time limits to prevent such extended detentions, these limits do not apply in cases where the police claim that breaches of state security are involved. "

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:09
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IT HAPPENS IN THE US JUST AS OFTEN. ALL GOVERNMENTS ARE EVIL, WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR APACHE WAS SHOT DOWN BY A FARMER, HUH???

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by rah
"While China's criminal procedure code stipulates time limits to prevent such extended detentions, these limits do not apply in cases where the police claim that breaches of state security are involved. "

Hmmm, sounds familiar.


Except that when we claim that perogative here, Americans are free to protest.

quote:
Originally posted by Zylka
IT HAPPENS IN THE US JUST AS OFTEN. ALL GOVERNMENTS ARE EVIL, WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR APACHE WAS SHOT DOWN BY A FARMER, HUH???


What are you using ? No, what aren't you using ?

Calm down. And it obviously does NOT happen in the US "just as often", or even at all. We don't arrest people for political discussion.

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:21
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ah, more easy prey

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:24
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Man! What a bunch of Commies

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
PRC


Predictably Repressive Communists?

And the foreign money continues to pour in. The PRC will pull almost whatever human rights **** it wants to pull for the simple reason that the lackey west will never stop slavering over Chinese markets and Chinese labor. That's where Mao and Lenin had it all wrong.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:52
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#13 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

We should embargo them. Hey, maybe it didn't work in some cases, but they SURVIVE on exports.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:54
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American business interests would never let the US government do such a thing.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 03:58
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Suffering from ads?

Unfortunately so. But there could be economic benefits to it. It would open up a LOT of jobs here.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Predictably Repressive Communists?



That'll work.

And ya, good point about the West being unwilling to stand up to human rights violations in China. The amount of free trade with China should be tied to that country's human rights record.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 04:53
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But think how expensive happy meal toys would become.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
But think how expensive happy meal toys would become.
Couldn't we just get the cheap useless crap from Mexico?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 05:07
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Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
Settler

Aug 2005
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 05:31 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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Where has UR gone?! I wanna see him defend this

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
We should embargo them. Hey, maybe it didn't work in some cases, but they SURVIVE on exports.



Let's try to work on Most Favoured Nation status first!

quote:
American business interests would never let the US government do such a thing.


Without a doubt. Billions in joint ventures would be lost instantly.

quote:
Unfortunately so. But there could be economic benefits to it. It would open up a LOT of jobs here.


On the contrary. These are below market wage jobs that would eventually land in a developing nation. The impact here would be lost distribution jobs, and lost sales and the jobs that come with them.

The Vagabond is offline The Vagabond
Chieftain
of realpolitik and counterpropaganda
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Couldn't we just get the cheap useless crap from Mexico?


No. China is less costly, and production is being moved from Mexico to China. I'm afraid MtG will someday have to move his business from Mexico to China too.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Couldn't we just get the cheap useless crap from Mexico?


Naah, once we started paying people a dollar an hour, we were screwed out of the making cheap useless crap for gringos business.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Vagabond


No. China is less costly, and production is being moved from Mexico to China. I'm afraid MtG will someday have to move his business from Mexico to China too.


I boycott work in China.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 08:37
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#25 Report this post to a moderator
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This is just crazy. Yet another example of the bureaucratic mind. If they had registered it would have been okay, but because they didn't register their group they end up spending eight (10?) years in jail. Absolutely nuts!

Having said that, this doesn't show that the PRC government are thugs. It shows bureaucratic stupidity. It shows the lack of rule of law and the lack of trained judges and lawyers. It shows a lack of common sense.

Mind you, that's no comfort to the four men who will spend eight years in jail.

The Vagabond is offline The Vagabond
Chieftain
of realpolitik and counterpropaganda
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
I boycott work in China.


Do you do it on principle, or perhaps simply time isn't yet ripe for you?

Mao is offline Mao
Deity
Apolyton
Jun 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 09:50
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You've all heard me like a broken record "defending" the PRC, but this amuses me. A lot worse stuff is happening, don't harp too harshly on this guys...

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 09:52
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#28 Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Except that when we claim that perogative here, Americans are free to protest.


Three words: Lee Wen Ho. Or what about Camp X-Ray, where *cough* unlawful combatants *cough* are detained? How long have they been there, anyway?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Where has UR gone?! I wanna see him defend this


Mao sighting +1!

UR's sitting there, desperately hoping this thread will quickly and silently slide off the front page before one of his minders sees it.

edit: erm...hi, UR!

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:28
  Old Post 30-05-2003 09:55 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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#30 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

Mao... was that MAO

 
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