01-06-2003 04:52									#31
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Imran, you really think the US is still a functioning democracy?

Gnight, Georgeboy.

	01-06-2003 04:54									#32
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Yes...

but you seem to be stagnant in your trolling. 2/10

	01-06-2003 04:55									#33
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I don't know, Imran, in most functioning democracies the guy who gets the most votes becomes president.

	01-06-2003 04:57									#34
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""deceit" (I'm sure someone else can invent a better one)"

Bliar!!

	01-06-2003 04:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by elijah ""deceit" (I'm sure someone else can invent a better one)" Bliar!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!

	01-06-2003 04:59									#36
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Imran: If I were taking you more seriously, I might be trolling you. I am not. As for your grading attempt - aren't they teaching you any new tricks at law school?

Victor: Two german quotes in the sig - excellent!

	01-06-2003 05:02									#37
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OOOH, you want a law school grade!

1.100 / 4.300



If you are not trolling then you're an idiot or an anti-American, but I don't think you are an idiot.

	01-06-2003 05:03									#38
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quote: in most functioning democracies the guy who gets the most votes becomes president.

Yeah, and so it did in the US. In Electoral College votes, Bush won .

	01-06-2003 05:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui OOOH, you want a law school grade!

For what?
Anti-americanism, the new word for realism. As you should be aware from being called an antisemite - pretty much the same thing.

	01-06-2003 05:05									#40
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Irman, if you call Bush winning the presidency democracy you need some mental help, as long as the US has the Electoral college and a senate not based on population we are not a true Democratic Republic.

About Blair, New Labour = Neoconsevative.

	01-06-2003 05:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen We view him for what he is. Saddam Hussein is viewed with wide contempt in all circles, Arab world included. Why? Because his decisions have caused his people to suffer and his country to fall.

Not really, most Arabs while generally not liking Saddam, were generally opposed to the war to a greater degree.

quote: Your friends base their view of America strictly on the basis of the Anti-American sentiment that has been instilled in them since they were children.

Au contrare, they use much greater historical, legal and moral bases for their arguments than I ever could. I stick to philosophy... safer ground

quote: I mean, honestly, who has ever been considered a good leader simply because they share a single trait with those that they lead?

You have a lame human president or an alien from some distant world who happens to be capable of doing the job better (from their point of view). Most people would vote for the human. I'm not saying it is rational, but given the choice, most Arabs would choose an Arab leader. Its a cultural/religious brotherhood type connection. Just because we disagree with it is no reason not to respect it.

No matter how much it screams common sense to us, our own world views of what is right and wrong etc, are still subjective. It is my opinion that we hold back, realising that objectively, it is silly to impose ones on subjective judgement on another equally valid subjective. Objectively, to each, his own!

EDIT: lame VB code

	01-06-2003 05:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: in most functioning democracies the guy who gets the most votes becomes president. Yeah, and so it did in the US. In Electoral College votes, Bush won .

Insert generic "US is not a democracy but a Republic" comment.

You can't even run proper elections, although in the case of Bush, the Chicago and Florida fraud should cancel each other out.

	01-06-2003 05:08									#43
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quote: Irman, if you call Bush winning the presidency democracy you need some mental help, as long as the US has the Electoral college and a senate not based on population we are not a true Democratic Republic.

You are nuts. What the Hell do you think Democratic REPUBLIC means?! Bush won the election democratically under the Electoral College framework, which is, btw, based on the popular vote of each state. It seems pretty damn democratic to me.

As does the Senate. You have two representatives per state. People in the state get to vote on the Senators.

Your argument is as retarded as people saying ONE governor per state isn't democratic because some states have more people .

I dunno, should I call Proportional Representation undemocratic because you vote for the party, not the person?

	01-06-2003 05:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Insert generic "US is not a democracy but a Republic" comment. You can't even run proper elections, although in the case of Bush, the Chicago and Florida fraud should cancel each other out.

Jeb Bush f*cked with the election results in Miami

	01-06-2003 05:12									#45
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Says the guy in the state where Democrats gave out cigarettes to homeless people to get them to vote . Love the irony!

	01-06-2003 05:13									#46
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It's well known that Austrians make good nazis. Hitler was the Nazi head huncho, Heinrich Harrer was a nazi, and even Waldheim.

The really disturbing fact about Austrians is that they dumped all the blames upon Germans, played a role of a victim, and never went through any denazification process. Otherwise, you can't really explain how Waldheim ended up as UN general secretary, can you?

Today, Austrian still makes up the most nazi population in Europe. Electing Haider to government is probably the most definitive indication for that.

And yet some Austrians have the face to teach America a lesson in democracy?!

	01-06-2003 05:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Says the guy in the state where Democrats gave out cigarettes to homeless people to get them to vote . Love the irony!

So we can agree that the US is a Banana Republic. Well, that's settled.

	01-06-2003 05:15									#48
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And people thought kissing babies was bad.

	01-06-2003 05:15									#49
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LM:

quote: So we can agree that the US is a Banana Republic.

Because nothing fraudlent ever happens in European democracies .

	01-06-2003 05:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen Your friends base their view of America strictly on the basis of the Anti-American sentiment that has been instilled in them since they were children.

No one ever instilled Ant-American sentiment in me. For most of my youth, like most people where I come from, I was quite pro-American. I became Anti-American for two reasons.

(1) They behaved like childish bullies because we told them "no nukes in our back yard" and it was our back yard, not theirs.

(2) I read about all the rotten things they've done in the name of "freedom".

	01-06-2003 05:16									#51
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Irman, 0.000000000000000001/10 on your troll, the senate gives the less populated states, which are usually conservative, equal power to the very densely polpulated states, violating the "1 person, 1 vote" ethos that state legislatures are required to have.

	01-06-2003 05:17									#52
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Well, the fact remains that if the Electoral College votes were 100% proportional to the population of the states they represented, Gore would be in the White House (read that as: the total population of the states Gore won was greater than the total population of the states Bush won).

Then there's all the irregularities (on both sides) in the Florida election. No amount of debate will ever settle what actually happened in Florida. When the margin is under 1000 votes, so many minor issues suddenly matter.

	01-06-2003 05:17									#53
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"It's well known that Austrians make good nazis"

Which is not to say that all Austrians are nazis. One could use that argument against Britain because of the rise of the BNP and NF (different issues there).

Anyway methinks that is crossing a line there, as opposed to actually attacking the arguments.

	01-06-2003 05:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless It's well known that Austrians make good nazis. Hitler was the Nazi head huncho, Heinrich Harrer was a nazi, and even Waldheim. The really disturbing fact about Austrians is that they dumped all the blames upon Germans, played a role of a victim, and never went through any denazification process. Otherwise, you can't really explain how Waldheim ended up as UN general secretary, can you? Today, Austrian still makes up the most nazi population in Europe. Electing Haider to government is probably the most definitive indication for that.

Ah I see, Waldheim ended up as UN general secretary because of all his fellow nazis in, ia, the US and the USSR. You're such a bright bulb.

As for Haider, he'd be expelled from the Republican party as a whiny wet lefty on most issue.

Btw, Sound of Music makes a much better troll than the NSDAP as far as I'm concerned. Wanna try again?

	01-06-2003 05:20									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui LM: quote: So we can agree that the US is a Banana Republic. Because nothing fraudlent ever happens in European democracies .

Compared to you, our fraudulent actions are negligable. But tell me, what was the last major forgery at austrian elections, hmm?

	01-06-2003 05:21									#56
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Unlike the US

Well, in the case of Iraq, I don't think WOMD or terrorism was what drove public opinion primarily. The %-age of Americans who wanted to take out Hussein was remarkably steady the whole 12 years between GWI and GWII. The threats were all over the map during this period. This leads me to believe that Sloww is probably right. Quite simply, Americans thought he was bad news and needed to be put down.

I doubt the American people will raise a fuss if no WOMD are found. Nobody has really been critical of the president for this yet. They've only been concerned if the intelligence was bad, whether we were relying too much on human intelligence who hald ulterior motives, or if Bush et al. tweaked the intelligence.

	01-06-2003 05:22									#57
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Lets lay off the Austrians... their women are hot and their beer is beautiful on a stiflingly hot british summers day.... anyone know how to make an air conditioner for less than £20?

	01-06-2003 05:23									#58
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quote: Irman, 0.000000000000000001/10 on your troll, the senate gives the less populated states, which are usually conservative, equal power to the very densely polpulated states, violating the "1 person, 1 vote" ethos that state legislatures are required to have.

No troll at all. The Senate is a place where each State, which is its own seperate government has equal say. Just like the UN gives each country its own vote.

It is one state, one vote. I don't see how that violates democracy because they are each picked democratically according to our republican ideals.

Democracy simply means rule of the people. Doesn't say in which way it must be done.

quote: the fact remains that if the Electoral College votes were 100% proportional to the population of the states they represented, Gore would be in the White House

But it wasn't. That's not the way our democratic system was set up.

quote: Then there's all the irregularities (on both sides) in the Florida election.

Don't forget Chicago and most of the Midwestern states. In the 2002 elections, there is ample evidence that massive voter fraud in South Dakota gave the election to the Democrat. The only difference was that in Florida it was so close that it actually was brought to light. In most cases, the vote is so far in one direction, who cares?

	01-06-2003 05:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "It's well known that Austrians make good nazis" Which is not to say that all Austrians are nazis. One could use that argument against Britain because of the rise of the BNP and NF (different issues there). Anyway methinks that is crossing a line there, as opposed to actually attacking the arguments.

I'm only returning a troll in kind.

	01-06-2003 05:24									#60
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quote: Not really, most Arabs while generally not liking Saddam, were generally opposed to the war to a greater degree.

Enlighten me as to how that argument counters anything I said.

quote: Au contrare, they use much greater historical, legal and moral bases for their arguments than I ever could. I stick to philosophy... safer ground

Fair enough. I did not quite confine my statement to the degree I should have. It would be more accurate to say they have no basis for comparison between Saddam's permanent rule and America's temporary rule.

As for your last bit, I would agree wholeheartedly if the US had any intention of ruling Iraq for the long term. As it stands, I do not believe that is the case. Therefore, this is not a choice between an American leader and an Arab leader, but a choice between an elected leader and a despot.