01-06-2003 05:56									#91
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "Anyway, opinions in your tiny mountain hinterland matter little." I think thats crossing a line

Don't worry, Roland is tough. That's his reply: "We prefer the term "Arschland". Please comply."

	01-06-2003 05:57									#92
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler We prefer the term "Arschland". Please comply.

How about rebellious German province?

	01-06-2003 05:57									#93
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"No, see we actually are fairly open to immigrants. At least compared to the xenophobia of Europe."

True, but you get less refugees from the East and the Orient than us, partly due to geography, partly due to the fact that many in the East hate you. There are a lot of refugees coming in, which seems to spark off some inherent racist reaction in people.

If America had lots of immigrants coming in, one could expect a similar simplistic, racist, ethnocentric, xenophobic response.

I dont agree with it by the way (in case that wasnt clear), I just like to think that I understand it.

	01-06-2003 06:01									#94
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quote: If you really want to talk about Florida, the only way Gore could have won would have been to give into the Bush counter-demand for a statewide recount rather than go for the targeted recounting he did

-While I am still somewhat bitter about this occassionally, my original point was that the spectacle in Florida helps refute the point that this country is a functioning democracy. (I don't mean to imply that democracy is necessarily a good thing by that statement, merely that the US is far from that mark.)

	01-06-2003 06:01									#95
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quote: How is this relevant to electoral fraud in Florida?

Because if Gore won Tennessee, we'd have little or no idea of the 'fraud' that happened in Florida. It simply wouldn't have mattered, so it wouldn't have come out.\

quote: you get less refugees from the East and the Orient than us, partly due to geography, partly due to the fact that many in the East hate you.

Perhaps, but we certain get a LOT of immigrants from the East and Orient. More than you guys, I'm sure. You will see, especially on the West Coast, many East Asian communities, and every major city on the East Coast has Asia'towns'. There is also a growing Muslim population (5% of Americans are Muslim, IIRC) and a very quick growing Indian population (it helps that they are good with computers ).

	01-06-2003 06:03									#96
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quote: How about rebellious German province?

-You mean Bavaria? And I believe the propper term is staat.

	01-06-2003 06:05									#97
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quote: Because if Gore won Tennessee, we'd have little or no idea of the 'fraud' that happened in Florida. It simply wouldn't have mattered, so it wouldn't have come out.

-Then I suppose there was a silver lining to the whole thing. Too bad people have very short memories and no real electoral reform will come of this.

	01-06-2003 06:05									#98
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"but we certain get a LOT of immigrants from the East and Orient"

I stand corrected, although as a fraction of your population, I think we get more immigrants per year. The government has messed up distribution and cultural adaptation, as well as education programs, with the result that many are just released into hostile communities.

I guess America has more experience with immigrants, though we have had more immigration for longer, we had a gap between 1066 and the age of empire, the vast majority of Americans are immigrants, perhaps no more than 6th - 3rd generation for the most part. As such, perhaps American society is better at adapting in this respect.

	01-06-2003 06:06									#99
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quote: that the spectacle in Florida helps refute the point that this country is a functioning democracy

Totally disagree. Did the elections in 2002 seems to be disfunctional? No. They functioned fine and representatives got elected fine. Once in a while, you hear about election fraud and people think the sky is falling.

Relax, it still is a functioning democracy. I haven't seen the military take over yet. The people that claim that we don't have a functioning democracy all seem to be the ones that don't like Bush. The next time a Democrat gets elected President, will they still say the US doesn't have a functioning democracy. $100 says no.

	01-06-2003 06:08									#100
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quote: In terms of what people think of him, it is comparable. The actual mechanics of the policies is a completely different matter

The 'mechanics of the policies' are integral to the perception of any government. Because of the fear Saddam provoked in the Iraqi people, their perception of him will be fundamentally different from the British perception of Tony Blair.

quote: He was tolerating a slightly larger degree of dissent than previously when he was younger. It is a possible explanation for why the Iraqi people havent rose up against Saddam for years. Another reason was the fear after the previous ones failed when the Americans refused to help after the gulf war I, which would seem to indicate that concern for Iraqi people doesnt exactly rank particularly highly. A convenient, emotive excuse for a people whose government has blinded them by the flag.

When it comes down to it, Saddam would not have tolerated a full scale revolt. Whether the Americans helped the Iraqi people in their revolt before is irrelevant. The Iraqi people did not revolt because they knew they would be crushed.

	01-06-2003 06:11									#101
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quote: Relax, it still is a functioning democracy. I haven't seen the military take over yet.

- Why bother with a bloody coup when they can just get everything they want through Bush?

quote: The next time a Democrat gets elected President, will they still say the US doesn't have a functioning democracy. $100 says no.

-Depends. My cynicism is reaching new heights. Too many "Democrats" nowadays are so much like Republicans it's not funny. I'm seriously considering joining the Green Party myself... I just wish they could put together a platform that had a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to more than 1% of the population. If they could just stick to being the Green Party and not the Communist Party as well, they could probably make some small inroads.

	01-06-2003 06:11									#102
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quote: I stand corrected, although as a fraction of your population, I think we get more immigrants per year. The government has messed up distribution and cultural adaptation, as well as education programs, with the result that many are just released into hostile communities.

That could be true. The US tends to get immigrants from everywhere . As you said, the US is used to immigrants and better adapting. My entire father's side of the family have all immigrated to the United States in the last 30 years (Pakistani Muslims). We also tend to immigrate a lot of Latin Americans (obviously). I think the reason Britain has more Indians/Pakistanis is because you colonized them, so they feel more at home in your country (I actually have an uncle in South Essex... he and his wife are both doctors, his eldest daughter is a dentist, youngest daughter is a lawyer, and the son is studying in London to be a doctor... gladly they've assimilated well). And it is obvious why Turks would be in Europe and Algerians in France. The problem is you gotta be more accepting of these people. Though I'm sure Britain will be quite alright (having far spred out colonies tends to make you blokes a bit more cosmopolitan... of course, if that's the reason, then I have no idea what is up with the French .

	01-06-2003 06:12									#103
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quote: Why bother with a bloody coup when they can just get everything they want through Bush?

You make my point for me too easily . The current military isn't too happy at all with Rumsfeld's new ideas for modernizing the military. And Rummy has Bush's ear more than the military.

	01-06-2003 06:17									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Why bother with a bloody coup when they can just get everything they want through Bush? You make my point for me too easily . The current military isn't too happy at all with Rumsfeld's new ideas for modernizing the military. And Rummy has Bush's ear more than the military.

I mean seriously, look at what the Bush administration is doing. It's very obvious that they are not interested in the good of the people, but rather the good of those who gave them the money to buy the votes. Obviously the votes were not bought directly, but through campaign spending. In order for this country to have a functioning democratic system, it needs campaign finance reform and possibly a less apathetic population (Hey, it'd be cheaper to outsource all the voting to Canada).

	01-06-2003 06:17									#105
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" The 'mechanics of the policies' are integral to the perception of any government. Because of the fear Saddam provoked in the Iraqi people, their perception of him will be fundamentally different from the British perception of Tony Blair"

Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.

" When it comes down to it, Saddam would not have tolerated a full scale revolt. Whether the Americans helped the Iraqi people in their revolt before is irrelevant. The Iraqi people did not revolt because they knew they would be crushed"

It is entirely relevant because it shows the thinking in the government and civil service circles. Pretty much the same people in power now as then (in terms of thinking).

The fear of being crushed is of course important, but then I doubt the Iraqi army could have coped with a civilian revolt. It was underfunded and underequipped, suffering from years of sanctions etc. The Americans can attest to that, in battle. The republican guard was vastly overestimated. The population on the other hand had guns freely available to them. You see cases on the TV of 10 year old kids with shotguns, an

	01-06-2003 06:17									#106
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" The 'mechanics of the policies' are integral to the perception of any government. Because of the fear Saddam provoked in the Iraqi people, their perception of him will be fundamentally different from the British perception of Tony Blair"

Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.

" When it comes down to it, Saddam would not have tolerated a full scale revolt. Whether the Americans helped the Iraqi people in their revolt before is irrelevant. The Iraqi people did not revolt because they knew they would be crushed"

It is entirely relevant because it shows the thinking in the government and civil service circles. Pretty much the same people in power now as then (in terms of thinking).

The fear of being crushed is of course important, but then I doubt the Iraqi army could have coped with a civilian revolt. It was underfunded and underequipped, suffering from years of sanctions etc. The Americans can attest to that, in battle. The republican guard was vastly overestimated. The population on the other hand had guns freely available to them. You see cases on the TV of 10 year old kids with shotguns, and I doubt there was an Iraqi street without half a dozen AK-47's.

The people didnt revolt, because one way or another, partly through fear, and partly because to them, Saddam was the lesser of two evils, they didnt want to.

	01-06-2003 06:18									#107
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errr, dont know what happened with the first post there...

	01-06-2003 06:19									#108
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quote: The republican guard was vastly overestimated.

-Let's not forget, bribed.

	01-06-2003 06:20									#109
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quote: Originally posted by elijah If America had lots of immigrants coming in, one could expect a similar simplistic, racist, ethnocentric, xenophobic response. I dont agree with it by the way (in case that wasnt clear), I just like to think that I understand it.

We get far more immigrants each year than any of the European countries. Foreign born population is at almost all-time high. The numbers of Hispanics and Asians are growing rapidly. California and Hawaii no longer have a white majority.

As for hostilities against immigrants, they flare up from time to time here. The last time was 1994, when California elected a Republican governor running on anti-immigration platform. It turned out to be major disaster for Republicans, as naturalized immigrants struck back forcefully and ousted them from all important posts in California. Even as today's Democratic governor sucks completely, voters still would not elect a Republican.

Americans are more tolerant to immigrants from other ethnic groups than Europeans. The population of the state Washington is only 5% Asian, but that doesn't prevent the people from electing a governor of Chinese descent. Will German ever elect a "Ministerpraesident" of Turkish descent? I doubt I will see it during my life time.

	01-06-2003 06:22									#110
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quote: It's very obvious that they are not interested in the good of the people, but rather the good of those who gave them the money to buy the votes

Obvious to socialists like yourself perhaps, but not to the rest of us .

For one, I don't believe a single word of that sentance. Bush is just as interested in the good of the people as Clinton was... and I don't think you'd call him a corporate lackey.

	01-06-2003 06:26									#111
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That is indeed true. I cant fault America on its immigration policy, whereas in Britain, it sucks. Im pro-immigration, I think it helps the economy in the long term (less people being born, more old, less working population to support the old yadda yadda), but the wave of racism sweeping this nation is wholly disturbing. Also anti-european xenophobia is at an all time high. I have yet to find someone in Britain pro-war who doesnt hate the French right now, and I mean really hate, spewing anti-french propaganda and stereotypes like Henry V was on the throne!

"Will German ever elect a "Ministerpraesident" of Turkish descent? I doubt I will see it during my life time"

Will America ever elect a black or female president"?

Having said that, Colin Powell (although he said he doesnt want to), and Hillary Clinton has a good shot at 2008 imo (2004 looks like Bush country unfortunately). I think America could use the female touch.

	01-06-2003 06:28									#112
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"Obvious to socialists like yourself perhaps, but not to the rest of us"

Exactly how many of Bush's top brass have strong corporate links?

	01-06-2003 06:31									#113
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Will America ever elect a black or female president"? Having said that, Colin Powell (although he said he doesnt want to), and Hillary Clinton has a good shot at 2008 imo (2004 looks like Bush country unfortunately). I think America could use the female touch.

Condi Rice? I would give her my vote over Hillary.

Hillary is an evil *****, the same type of person like Carly Fiorina of HP.

	01-06-2003 06:34									#114
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" Hillary is an evil *****, the same type of person like Carly Fiorina of HP"

Yes, but she's hot!!! Although Condoleeza Rice is high on the scale of cute!!! God what is it about America and attractive female politicians???

Who do we have? Ann Widdecombe???

	01-06-2003 06:35									#115
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quote: For one, I don't believe a single word of that sentance. Bush is just as interested in the good of the people as Clinton was... and I don't think you'd call him a corporate lackey.

-I have my doubts about Clinton as well now, but yes, I did like him better. Bush is just a moron who's put the country in the hands of corporate interests. Perhaps, I just don't like the size of the contracts Halliburton has in rebuilding in Iraq. And really, Imran, I preffer the term Social Democrat to socialist.

	01-06-2003 06:52									#116
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quote: Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.

Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not.

quote: It is entirely relevant because it shows the thinking in the government and civil service circles. Pretty much the same people in power now as then (in terms of thinking).[/QUOTES] If anything, the people who went through this last time are making every effort to not repeat the mistakes made in the first Gulf War. I think that's evident. [QUOTE]The fear of being crushed is of course important, but then I doubt the Iraqi army could have coped with a civilian revolt. It was underfunded and underequipped, suffering from years of sanctions etc. The Americans can attest to that, in battle. The republican guard was vastly overestimated. The population on the other hand had guns freely available to them. You see cases on the TV of 10 year old kids with shotguns, and I doubt there was an Iraqi street without half a dozen AK-47's.

The Republican Guard was vastly overestimated...when facing a vastly superior force. The Iraqi people did not have an M1-A1, nor did they have helicopters, the reason the first revolts were put down so swiftly. Before the war, a majority of Iraqis probably did not have weapons. They got them after the fall, from former military bases/ weapons caches.

	01-06-2003 06:57									#117
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Yes of course, but not to a relevant degree in this argument. My point is that the Iraqis could tolerate Saddam, whereas they cannot tolerate the Americans.

That depends on our performance in rebuilding the country.

My feeling is that in the end, they won't be too happy about our presence, but they won't waste their effort on armed resistance, either.

As for Saddam, Iraqis didn't tolerate him, they had no choice but to submit.

	01-06-2003 09:14									#118
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quote: Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not.

-Welcome to the world of irrational people. Besides the Americans won't suppress a revolt as well as Saddam's regime. Really depends on how things go. Right now, things are worse than under Saddam. Hopefully the situation will improve quickly, but if this lasts...

	01-06-2003 10:25									#119
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quote: Exactly how many of Bush's top brass have strong corporate links?

Compared to regular administrations? It isn't much more than Clinton's, I can tell you that. It would only figure that people in an administration would have corporate links. You aren't exactly pulling homeless people off the streets to work as your Cabinet members.

quote: And really, Imran, I preffer the term Social Democrat to socialist.

Same difference.

	01-06-2003 10:30									#120
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Socialists are Socialists, no matter the adjectives attached.