01-06-2003 05:24									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS or if Bush et al. tweaked the intelligence.

If ?

	01-06-2003 05:25									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Well, the fact remains that if the Electoral College votes were 100% proportional to the population of the states they represented, Gore would be in the White House (read that as: the total population of the states Gore won was greater than the total population of the states Bush won).

Not true. Winning the electoral votes in a state is generally an all-or-nothing affair (there have been very few exceptions to this rule), so if one candidate wins 100% of the vote in the states representing 49% of the electoral college, while the other candidate wins 51% of the votes in the states representing 51% of the electoral college, then the latter candidate wins despite only winning approximately 25% of the popular vote. This is intended to reduce the effects of regional voting. For example, Lincoln was not even put on the Southern ballots in (IIRC) the 1860 election, but he still won the majority of votes in the Northern states, resulting in his winning a majority of the electoral votes despite only winning approximately 40% of the popular vote. That
s why there's an electoral college -- it puts a cap on the effect that any single state/region can exert on the election process.

	01-06-2003 05:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Ah I see, Waldheim ended up as UN general secretary because of all his fellow nazis in, ia, the US and the USSR. You're such a bright bulb. As for Haider, he'd be expelled from the Republican party as a whiny wet lefty on most issue. Btw, Sound of Music makes a much better troll than the NSDAP as far as I'm concerned. Wanna try again?

Come on, we know you Austrians desire "Zucht und Ordnung", "Oesterreich den Oesterreichern!", and "Auslaender raus!"

As for Waldheim, how should we know his past if you guys covered everything up? He seemed to be quite tame in the 70s.

	01-06-2003 05:27									#64
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Hershell: Few even in the intelligence community are saying that the administration tweaked the intelligence. There are a lot of people in the intelligence community covering their asses right now, so you would expect them to latch on to it, if it were true. But they haven't.

They haven't even attacked the DIA, the neocon intelligence fiefdom that has grown so much and is somewhat independent from the rest of the intelligence bureaucracy.

Given these items, it seems likely to me that intelligence community still thinks that we will find some bona fide chemical or biological weapons in Iraq and that the details of the particular intelligence failures (where things are, etc.) will go by the wayside.

	01-06-2003 05:28									#65
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In addition to election irregularities, there's the way the parties carve out electoral districts to favor them. Everyone does it, everywhere in this country. Other countries have independent commissions look into these things. Here, the state legislature does it.

	01-06-2003 05:29									#66
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What's so bad about Zucht und Ordnung?

And we don't expel our Ausländer, we assimilate them. We naturalize them at a 30.000 to 40.000 rate per year, and turn them into ardent xenophobes by that.

	01-06-2003 05:31									#67
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Compared to you, our fraudulent actions are negligable. But tell me, what was the last major forgery at austrian elections, hmm?

I'm just surprised that everybody's still harping on our last major forgery. Watergate was decades ago, people! Let it go!

	01-06-2003 05:31									#68
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" Enlighten me as to how that argument counters anything I said"

Hardly counts as contempt when someone prefers Saddam in Iraq than the Americans!!

Nonetheless, the situation, I am told, is viewed as little different in Iraq as anti-Blair people view the current government here. Contempt, ridicule, unpopular (ok closer to conservative then... i dont know the opinion polls for blair, but if their anything like my mind, its not good for our favourite 50 year old), runs wild, but generally, not enough to make the people rise up in a number of years. I believe that before the war, Saddam was laying off with the oppression somewhat, so if the people were going to rise up, just before the war was the best opportunity. Didnt happen.

"As for your last bit, I would agree wholeheartedly if the US had any intention of ruling Iraq for the long term"

Very true, I doubt the US will stay in there more than a year, whether they garrison it is a different matter, though with Iran, I would imagine that they would. Nonetheless, the question is whether the US will have any signigicant power of the Iraqi government. My betting is that the governmental puppet show is about to get a brand new actor.

	01-06-2003 05:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS They haven't even attacked the DIA, the neocon intelligence fiefdom that has grown so much and is somewhat independent from the rest of the intelligence bureaucracy.

They haven't?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/30/o...Ed%2fColumnists

	01-06-2003 05:32									#70
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Not true. Winning the electoral votes in a state is generally an all-or-nothing affair (there have been very few exceptions to this rule), so if one candidate wins 100% of the vote in the states representing 49% of the electoral college, while the other candidate wins 51% of the votes in the states representing 51% of the electoral college, then the latter candidate wins despite only winning approximately 25% of the popular vote. This is intended to reduce the effects of regional voting. For example, Lincoln was not even put on the Southern ballots in (IIRC) the 1860 election, but he still won the majority of votes in the Northern states, resulting in his winning a majority of the electoral votes despite only winning approximately 40% of the popular vote. That s why there's an electoral college -- it puts a cap on the effect that any single state/region can exert on the election process.

-What you're saying is true, but it does not in any way contradict my statement. Right now, each state has a number of representatives directly proportional to its population; however, the number of Electoral votes is equal to 2 + its number of representatives. This gives small states an unfair advantage in violation of the "one man, one vote" doctrine. If you reduced each states' number of electoral votes by 2, Bush's 271-266 victory becomes a 213-224 loss. He won more small states and thus benefited disproportionately from this skew in the way electoral votes are assigned.

edit: fixed my numbers which were slightly off. Had forgot to account that one of Gore's electors abstained and randomly gave Bush two too many votes.

	01-06-2003 05:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'm just surprised that everybody's still harping on our last major forgery. Watergate was decades ago, people! Let it go!

You've missed the Florida farce, then.

	01-06-2003 05:36									#72
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More or less same people in power too, or at least the same doctrines.

	01-06-2003 05:37									#73
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You've missed the Florida farce, then.

You mean how the democrats approved the butterfly ballots, and then blamed them for their loss? Stupidity on the part of the losing party does not constitute fraud on the part of the winning party.

	01-06-2003 05:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler What's so bad about Zucht und Ordnung? And we don't expel our Ausländer, we assimilate them. We naturalize them at a 30.000 to 40.000 rate per year, and turn them into ardent xenophobes by that.

Did I say that was bad? I just want to remind you that "Zucht und Ordnung" are not what leftists and liberals stand for. If you really love these concepts, think twice before throwing in the same lot with lefists.

If what you say about immigration is true, I think Austria is doing a better job than Germany here.

Germany is taking many Muslims in every year and turn them into ardent anti-westerners. How sad.

	01-06-2003 05:38									#75
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I think what he is saying is that Florida wasn't a major forgery .

	01-06-2003 05:39									#76
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"Germany is taking many Muslims in every year and turn them into ardent anti-westerners. How sad"

Undoubtably because of poor conditions, that seems to be a phenonemon for asylum seekers across Europe. What does one expect when one treats people like animals, or commodities?

	01-06-2003 05:42									#77
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"I think what he is saying is that Florida wasn't a major forgery"



To be fair on the neocon fraudsters, we've all done it. Hands up everyone who faked a bus-pass as a kid!!

	01-06-2003 05:43									#78
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quote: You mean how the democrats approved the butterfly ballots, and then blamed them for their loss? Stupidity on the part of the losing party does not constitute fraud on the part of the winning party.

-You mean how the "Democrat" in charge of the ballots had only recently switched parties for political reasons? But I think he might have been reffering to the thousands of people removed from the voter rolls because they had a name similar to that of a convicted felon or had the same birthdate. Bush specifically ordered the company who he outsourced this task to use the loosest criteria for finding felons on the voter roles even against specific warnings that this would turn up thousands of false positives? Or maybe it was some of the military absentee ballots counted even though they were postmarked days after the election?

	01-06-2003 05:43									#79
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quote: Hardly counts as contempt when someone prefers Saddam in Iraq than the Americans

Prefering one thing over another doesn't necessarily mean you don't find both contemptible.

And no, the situation under Saddam was in no way comparable to the political situation in the UK. In the UK, you can actually express your contempt, ridicule, etc. without being imprisoned, killed, or worse.

quote: I believe that before the war, Saddam was laying off with the oppression somewhat

That makes it all better. Even if he was (and I seriously doubt he was), how does that change anything? You think a revolt would have been crushed any less brutally?

As for installing a puppet government in Iraq, I think the US would have a difficult time. The Iraqi people aren't stupid, nor are they as apathetic as the Americans. They'll recognize American puppetry if they see it, and elect a new government. If the US tries to interfere, I think there will be serious hell to pay.

	01-06-2003 05:45									#80
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quote: As for installing a puppet government in Iraq, I think the US would have a difficult time. The Iraqi people aren't stupid, nor are they as apathetic as the Americans. They'll recognize American puppetry if they see it, and elect a new government. If the US tries to interfere, I think there will be serious hell to pay

-But do the Americans realize this?

	01-06-2003 05:46									#81
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God! When will you people let that go! If Gore had been competent enough to win his home state Florida wouldn't have mattered in the least.

	01-06-2003 05:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Did I say that was bad? I just want to remind you that "Zucht und Ordnung" are not what leftists and liberals stand for. If you really love these concepts, think twice before throwing in the same lot with lefists.

Leftists? Contempt for Bush and his ilk is absolutely mainstream here, and we're a very conservative country.

"Germany is taking many Muslims in every year and turn them into ardent anti-westerners. How sad."

About 1 % of muslims in Germany qualifies as radical fundamentalists. Nobody knows what that figure is for America, as you prefer to ignore the problem.

	01-06-2003 05:48									#83
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"Prefering one thing over another doesn't necessarily mean you don't find both contemptible"

Perhaps, but degrees of contempt.

"And no, the situation under Saddam was in no way comparable to the political situation in the UK. In the UK, you can actually express your contempt, ridicule, etc. without being imprisoned, killed, or worse"

In terms of what people think of him, it is comparable. The actual mechanics of the policies is a completely different matter.

"You think a revolt would have been crushed any less brutally?"

He was tolerating a slightly larger degree of dissent than previously when he was younger. It is a possible explanation for why the Iraqi people havent rose up against Saddam for years. Another reason was the fear after the previous ones failed when the Americans refused to help after the gulf war I, which would seem to indicate that concern for Iraqi people doesnt exactly rank particularly highly. A convenient, emotive excuse for a people whose government has blinded them by the flag.

	01-06-2003 05:48									#84
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No, see we actually are fairly open to immigrants. At least compared to the xenophobia of Europe.

	01-06-2003 05:50									#85
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Leftists? Contempt for Bush and his ilk is absolutely mainstream here, and we're a very conservative country. "Germany is taking many Muslims in every year and turn them into ardent anti-westerners. How sad." About 1 % of muslims in Germany qualifies as radical fundamentalists. Nobody knows what that figure is for America, as you prefer to ignore the problem.

Anyway, opinions in your tiny mountain hinterland matter little.

	01-06-2003 05:51									#86
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"But do the Americans realize this?"

It is entirely plausible that the politicians are believing their own propaganda. The reaction of the Iraqi people on the ground seems to have surprised the Americans, and would seem to indicate that they do not research their "targets" fully.

The WMD issue shows, that even if weapons turn up or not, that the US went into this war, with their major argument, purported as fact to the people, the UN, and other nations, was in fact mere speculation!!

	01-06-2003 05:51									#87
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"Anyway, opinions in your tiny mountain hinterland matter little."

I think thats crossing a line

	01-06-2003 05:52									#88
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quote: God! When will you people let that go! If Gore had been competent enough to win his home state Florida wouldn't have mattered in the least.

-How is this relevant to electoral fraud in Florida?

	01-06-2003 05:54									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Anyway, opinions in your tiny mountain hinterland matter little.

We prefer the term "Arschland". Please comply.

	01-06-2003 05:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -How is this relevant to electoral fraud in Florida?

If you really want to talk about Florida, the only way Gore could have won would have been to give into the Bush counter-demand for a statewide recount rather than go for the targeted recounting he did.