01-06-2003 11:16									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Welcome to the world of irrational people. Besides the Americans won't suppress a revolt as well as Saddam's regime.

We reamed their county in barely a month, and we've destroyed their heavy weapons. We own the ****ing place. What's to rebel with, for or against?

quote: Really depends on how things go. Right now, things are worse than under Saddam. Hopefully the situation will improve quickly, but if this lasts...

Some infrastructure issues are worse, some employment issues are worse, but there's a whole legion of things (arbitrary arrest, extortion, systematic human rights violations, plundering of the economy to build palaces, withholding of available humanitarian supplies, etc.) that are better.

	01-06-2003 12:54									#122
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quote: God what is it about America and attractive female politicians???

denmark is where its at.

	01-06-2003 12:58									#123
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc God! When will you people let that go! If Gore had been competent enough to win his home state Florida wouldn't have mattered in the least.

Amen to that...

Bush is definately not my favorite president, but is much better than Gore, IMHO. And I even consider myself more of a democrat than a republican too

Ill say it again, The USA was between a rock and a hard place with that election. We had to pick our poison, and i believe we made the better choice.

	02-06-2003 02:18									#124
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quote: Socialists are Socialists, no matter the adjectives attached.

-And people wonder why the rest of the world views America as ignorant.

quote: We reamed their county in barely a month, and we've destroyed their heavy weapons. We own the ****ing place. What's to rebel with, for or against?

-You've crushed the Iraqi army more or less, but there is still the populace. It could get really ugly if they decided to rise up.

quote: Some infrastructure issues are worse, some employment issues are worse, but there's a whole legion of things (arbitrary arrest, extortion, systematic human rights violations, plundering of the economy to build palaces, withholding of available humanitarian supplies, etc.) that are better.

-Not yet. Anarchy still reigns. It's not as bad as in the first few days, but it's quite obvious from news reports that Iraq still lacks a functional government. If you think that's better than having a repressive government, you haven't considered the implications thereof.

	02-06-2003 02:34									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Then, US army should already have invaded half of African countries...

Not being able to counter 50 dictators at once is not an excuse for failing to attempt to remove one of them.

	02-06-2003 02:36									#126
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quote: Not being able to counter 50 dictators at once is not an excuse for failing to attempt to remove one of them.

-Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd, that the one that they chose to counter was the leader of a country with large oil reserves? Now a former Shell executive is running the Iraqi oil industry

	02-06-2003 02:49									#127
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Another article on the causes of the Iraq war:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/9..._wolfowitz.html

The headline and picture to go with it are classic The article itself is a lot more tame than those.

	02-06-2003 04:04									#128
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isn't shell danish in origin?

thoes damned danes, i don't think they supported our war. they're against us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

	02-06-2003 04:21									#129
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quote: Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd, that the one that they chose to counter was the leader of a country with large oil reserves?

It isn't like those ones in Africa can be considered Middle East... and the one that can (Egypt) is fairly moderate and on good terms with Israel. And like Syria would have been an easier choice?

	02-06-2003 04:27									#130
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syria would've been much harder, and probably even more difficult to organize a coalition against.

even with all of this, i do think bush could have handled this situation a helluva lot better than he did.

	02-06-2003 04:27									#131
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Socialists are Socialists, no matter the adjectives attached.

It's this kind of black and white thinking that is causing us problems in America.

	02-06-2003 04:28									#132
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" Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not"

Try telling that to an Iraqi. As irrational as it may seem to you and me, it is a different culture, but an equally valid subjective to ours.

"Before the war, a majority of Iraqis probably did not have weapons. They got them after the fall, from former military bases/ weapons caches"

On the contrary, Iraqi civilians have had ready access to heavy guns for years! My friends father and uncle had assault rifles, handguns, revolvers, shotgun, WW2 rifle etc, long before the war (my friends Tariq and Muhammed came to Britain in 2001).

" That depends on our performance in rebuilding the country"

Not really, they hate you . They will not be grateful, Iraqi history, as undoubtably Western history, will judge this war to be a mistake, most Arabs have that sentiment, its as good as done. Even if the Americans successfully rebuild purely Iraq in the image that Iraqis want, with a fully autonomous independent-of-the-US government (an eventuality I doubt will occur), it will take decades to build some degree of trust. If the above situation, plus a fully viable Palestinian state at peace with Israel, and no unequal Israeli funding by USA doesnt occur, a prospect I fear is more likely, then dont expect the Arabs to stop burning the US flag anytime soon.

"Besides the Americans won't suppress a revolt as well as Saddam's regime"

I was not saying that, I was saying that Saddams forces couldnt effectively suppress a civilian revolt. The Iraqi people were and are armed, they know it, they must have surely had an incline to the state of the Iraqi armed forces, plus had an idea of the American build up to an invasion. If the Iraqi people truly wanted rid of Saddam, they would have done so in February/March this year.

"Compared to regular administrations? It isn't much more than Clinton's, I can tell you that. It would only figure that people in an administration would have corporate links. You aren't exactly pulling homeless people off the streets to work as your Cabinet members"

So strong corporate links then? Stronger (albeit slightly, the dems and reps are so similiar it hardly makes a difference, the USA is practically a one party state, almost in a state of corporate communism), than the previous regime?

"Socialists are Socialists, no matter the adjectives attached"

On the contrary it is a sliding scale. Policalcompass.org (or is it .net?) is a good indication of this. I am a libertarian socialist, which is a completely different kettle of fish to an authoritarian socialist, or a Stalinist.

There are more similarities between the current USA system and Stalinist socialism/communism, than my point of view as Stalinism.

That is why one shuold avoid using the fallacy of "left and right", and the further fallacy of assuming that people that are on the "left" are the same. One does not assume that conservativism (centre right) is the same as nazism (far right)!

	02-06-2003 04:28									#133
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I don't think it is 'white and black' to say that Social Democrats are basically socialist. Social Democracy was created as a strand of socialism. To say otherwise is ignoring fact.

	02-06-2003 04:32									#134
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"Not being able to counter 50 dictators at once is not an excuse for failing to attempt to remove one of them."

Is forcibly removing dictators wise or justifiable, with simply the justification we use for having better systems? Our justification, our system, is entirely subjective in this context, we have no right to go around forcing it on others, who have equally valid subjectives. God how many times have I used that phrase!!!

	02-06-2003 04:32									#135
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quote: I don't think it is 'white and black' to say that Social Democrats are basically socialist. Social Democracy was created as a strand of socialism. To say otherwise is ignoring fact.

But to equate Social Democrats to hardline Soviet Stalinists is just plain stupid.

	02-06-2003 04:34									#136
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"We reamed their county in barely a month, and we've destroyed their heavy weapons. We own the ****ing place. What's to rebel with, for or against?"

The fact that Americans are in charge and have power over an Arab land? One must understand the culture before one attempts to rule it. The Arabs tolerated Saddam, but will not tolerate the Americans, because Saddam was a fellow Arab. May suck as a reason to us, but it makes it no less valid to them.

	02-06-2003 04:35									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I don't think it is 'white and black' to say that Social Democrats are basically socialist. Social Democracy was created as a strand of socialism. To say otherwise is ignoring fact.

We see it differently here; social democracy does not mean socialist, but center with social concerns. You could call it center left.

	02-06-2003 04:38									#138
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"Welcome to the world of irrational people"

That meant to mean that I'm irrational? If so, begone!

	02-06-2003 05:10									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Doesn't it strike you as slightly odd, that the one that they chose to counter was the leader of a country with large oil reserves? It isn't like those ones in Africa can be considered Middle East... and the one that can (Egypt) is fairly moderate and on good terms with Israel. And like Syria would have been an easier choice?

-Yes, but why was it necessary to topple a dictator in the Middle East? Why not Africa? Unless toppling a dictator wasn't the real motive.

quote: We see it differently here; social democracy does not mean socialist, but center with social concerns. You could call it center left.

Right, despite the inflamatory language I may chose to use at times, my real political standing is somewhere slightly left of centre in a European sense, well to the right of communist parties.

	02-06-2003 05:18									#140
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quote: Yes, but why was it necessary to topple a dictator in the Middle East?

Um... Does 9/11 ring ANY bells?!

quote: But to equate Social Democrats to hardline Soviet Stalinists is just plain stupid.

I didn't. Soviet Stalinists, as everyone knows, are called communist .

quote: Is forcibly removing dictators wise or justifiable, with simply the justification we use for having better systems? Our justification, our system, is entirely subjective in this context, we have no right to go around forcing it on others, who have equally valid subjectives. God how many times have I used that phrase!!!

Yeah, you've used the phrase a lot. Sorry, but we ain't buying. Our system IS better. Subjectively speaking or not, we have a better way. Democracy is preferable to Dictatorship. Having people be equal under the law is preferable to not having it.

While it may be 'equally valid' because it is subjective, we, and most people out there, think that our system is better... and we want to spread that to those that don't have our system (who have lesser systems).

	02-06-2003 05:23									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... Does 9/11 ring ANY bells?!

oh please, don't feed us this garbage... prove Saddam had something to do with 9-11 and I might bite

quote: I didn't. Soviet Stalinists, as everyone knows, are called communist .

in this case, I was referring to unnamed others who often make no such distinction

	02-06-2003 05:24									#142
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Frankly I dont give a **** for freedom in middle east.

I dont daydream about some bullshit about equality for all man when I all I care about is how much Im paying for social securities on my next paycheck.

Im leaning toward the arguement said by lefties that the war was for some motivation to gain something (oil, political whatever) and I agree. therefor I support the ****ing war.

case closed. No need to go into whole philosophical stuff that can never be conclusive.

	02-06-2003 05:27									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Frankly I dont give a **** for freedom in middle east.

If only Bush were this honest.

quote: I dont daydream about some bullshit about equality for all man when I all I care about is how much Im paying for social securities on my next paycheck.

ah! a cynical realist

quote: Im leaning toward the arguement said by lefties that the war was for some motivation to gain something (oil, political whatever) and I agree. therefor I support the ****ing war.

ah! a cynical realist!

	02-06-2003 05:28									#144
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quote: Um... Does 9/11 ring ANY bells?!

-I fail to see any relevancy.

quote: Having people be equal under the law is preferable to not having it.

-Having a law is prefferable to not having one though.

	02-06-2003 05:29									#145
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ah, zero, how old are you?

i'm still in college. chances are, as things stand, all the money i make that goes to social security... well, hell, i'll never see a return on it.

pisses me off, too. i've half a mind to try and avoid paying that tax, but i can't.

	02-06-2003 05:31									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If only Bush were this honest. ah! a cynical realist ah! a cynical realist!

yeah I know Im a selfish d!ckhead, but at least I dont pretend to be something else.

	02-06-2003 05:32									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed ah, zero, how old are you? i'm still in college. chances are, as things stand, all the money i make that goes to social security... well, hell, i'll never see a return on it. pisses me off, too. i've half a mind to try and avoid paying that tax, but i can't.

In college. doing part time job at the gap right now. SS taken out of my check right now is insignificant, but as you said, its gonna be bullshit when I graduate.

	02-06-2003 05:38									#148
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nice Zero you sound a lot like myself!

Q Cubed: While I agree with Social Security in principle, I agree with you in practice. Our Republican leaders are definitely going to pass the bill on to us.

	02-06-2003 06:38									#149
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quote: Our Republican leaders are definitely going to pass the bill on to us.

Yes, because Democrats would never do that .... and they'll find a way to fix it before the boomers destroy it to... yeah right.

	02-06-2003 06:42									#150
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The fix to Social Security ills is to increase the retirement age. Soc. Sec. worked because there were many more workers than retired people at the time. The average life expectancy was 65. Now...