02-06-2003 06:42									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, because Democrats would never do that ...

Did you sleep through the Clinton years? You know... when the 1993 budget and economic policies led to record lows in unemployment? Or how about when the government showed surpluses for the first time in like 30 years?

I'm not a big Democrat fan, they're simply the lesser-evils IMO. But the Clinton economic record, burst bubble aside, stands above and beyond 12 years of Reaganomics and the last two years of "Economics for Dummies".

	02-06-2003 06:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Our Republican leaders are definitely going to pass the bill on to us. Yes, because Democrats would never do that .... and they'll find a way to fix it before the boomers destroy it to... yeah right.

Didnt FDR(d) come up with the idea of S.S in the first place?

	02-06-2003 06:43									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Didnt FDR(d) come up with the idea of S.S in the first place?

The idea is sound as long as we have people in office commited to making it work.

	02-06-2003 06:50									#154
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quote: Did you sleep through the Clinton years? You know... when the 1993 budget and economic policies led to record lows in unemployment? Or how about when the government showed surpluses for the first time in like 30 years?

Did you sleep through history class? Explain Kennedy and Johnson as well as Carter to me again and their debts? One Democrat a changed policy does not make.

quote: But the Clinton economic record, burst bubble aside, stands above and beyond 12 years of Reaganomics

Do you mean his policies or what happened when he was in office. Because for economic policies, I think Reagan's decisions were better for the economy than Clinton's... thankfully most of Clinton's ideas never got through (healthcare - which would have gone bankrupt in 2 years according to the CBO... Congress being in the hands of the Democrats then) or else we'd be having a recession a few years earlier.

	02-06-2003 06:51									#155
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quote: The idea is sound as long as we have people in office commited to making it work.

Not when you have a massive amount of baby boomers who are just about to retire, who will overwhelm the system. Look at MtG's posts on SS being a Ponzi scheme in the thread with the similar name.

	02-06-2003 10:03									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen Which is the most ridiculous statement you've made so far. 30 years of rape, torture, and murder is tolerable. A short term American occupation is not.

Given that the US helped Hussein to power, and helped Hussein during the Iranian-Iraq War, how would you convince the Iraqis that, the US is kicking Hussein out for their own good?

	02-06-2003 10:54									#157
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I'm disgusted by the fact that there are no weapons of mass distruction. The whole Bush administration disgusts me. Don't get me wrong, I'm still happy he has the balls to stand up to middle eastern nations. No more mr. nice guy for the U.S.

But anyways, the intelligence failure is terrible. You would think the horrible intelligence would have improved after the intelligence failures after 9/11. But I guess not.

	02-06-2003 11:25									#158
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quote: Try telling that to an Iraqi. As irrational as it may seem to you and me, it is a different culture, but an equally valid subjective to ours

How is culture in any way relevant to any of this? Saddam Hussein is not Arab or even Iraqi culture. He isn't even part of Arab or Iraqi culture. He is a figurehead, representing a political ideal, which some accept and some do not. If by removing Saddam Hussein, we were somehow violating or destroying Arab culture, then your argument might hold water. But that's not the case.

And, unless you subscribe to the philosophy that majority determines morality, to say that most Arabs prefer Saddam Hussein to the US, ergo he should be left in power, is a very basic fallacy.

And, to say that the US army rolled over the Republican Guard, ergo they could not suppress a popular uprising ignores several fundamental differences between the two.

	02-06-2003 11:40									#159
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"How is culture in any way relevant to any of this?"

I assume people in the administration think the same way. Welcome to the Iraq fiasco.

	02-06-2003 11:53									#160
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quote: I assume people in the administration think the same way. Welcome to the Iraq fiasco.

Care to explain why you feel the need to misconstrue what I said?

	02-06-2003 12:12									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm disgusted by the fact that there are no weapons of mass distruction.

I am disgusted too. This is one of the big sore points right now.

	02-06-2003 12:22									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen Care to explain why you feel the need to misconstrue what I said?

What misconstruction? Didn't you say the issue of culture is irrelevant for Iraqi attitudes towards US occupation? If not, what did you mean by "any of this"?

	02-06-2003 12:50									#163
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I also wonder whether the next Bush war is against Saudi Arabia. Those gay "divorces" can be nasty.

	02-06-2003 13:24									#164
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So we can agree that the US is a Banana Republic. Well, that's settled.

Well what the hell is Austria's claim to fame?

Mozart, Hitler, a corrupt banking system and a bunch of silly clocks.

	02-06-2003 13:26									#165
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"a corrupt banking system and a bunch of silly clocks."



But no bananas, Gringo.

	02-06-2003 13:54									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Then, US army should already have invaded half of African countries...

In all fairness to the US, had they wanted to invade an African country instead of IRaq, it would have been child's play to come up with some economic motive for attacking. Just replace "oil" with diamonds/copper/cobalt/whatever, or for that matter just keep the phrase as is.

	02-06-2003 19:19									#167
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus In all fairness to the US, had they wanted to invade an African country instead of IRaq, it would have been child's play to come up with some economic motive for attacking. Just replace "oil" with diamonds/copper/cobalt/whatever, or for that matter just keep the phrase as is.

Really, deeds are much, much louder than words.

So far, there's no NBC weapons. Given the amount of intelligence US supposed to have, plus all those implied sources, one would deduce that the US forces could home in on all those dreadful Iraqi caches of deadly weapons. So far, however, nothing.

Then, even before the war was over, the US had been giving out contracts to US companies, those with close links to the W admin.

After the war, we don't hear anything about this NBC weapons business. Instead, the US all of a sudden became very eager to lift the embargo that they were also equally eager to impose on Iraq after GWI.

Lastly, of course, there's just the news of the US is going to appoint new rulers for Iraq. Been there, seen that. Nothing new here.

	02-06-2003 20:15									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's a short description of neoconservativism. This author puts Cheney as a neoconservative. I wouldn't label him that--he has been very coy about his real beliefs--but there you go.

Well the current actions are in accordance with this ideology, the problems I can see are many with this view... but this is not the issue, it pretty much gives the good reasons for attacking Iraq and for holding it in present situation.

It answers another question and that is the neo-cons are not ready, or do not have a legal base in international law for their ideas so they have to try and find legal precedents for attack what they tried with WOMD's.

And lastly "thinking" and actually accomplishing something is different, I just hope they don't screw up as much as they could... still one just have to look at Afghanistan and pace of changes there - so the country hasn't advanced much in the last year. It will be interesting if Iraqi democracy goes against it's "liberators" as it is very possible... and to see the importance of "Iraq democracy" if the democratic Iraq doesn't dance as the "liberator" says, will we see a pro-american dictator than? ... so it remains to be seen... but yes, the reasons for war are fairly clear now.

	02-06-2003 20:44									#169
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quote: " Hillary is an evil *****, the same type of person like Carly Fiorina of HP" Yes, but she's hot!!!

Ok, that's it. I was already pretty skeptical about you, but this one convinced me that you are certifiable. I cannot take you seriously.

As some people have mentioned (before the Austia v. US shitfest), there were more than one reason for this war. There were many reasons, and WMD was the one picked as most likely to get UN (and US popular) support. I'm irritated that the Bushies hammered away at that "reason" so hard, because now whatever shreds of international credibility we had are toast (well, I'm irritated about a lot of things regarding this war, but I'm trying to keep this short). But I think there is still hope for the outcome. It's still early - the occupation, I mean - and good can still come of this. I'm skeptical, and not particularly impressed so far, but I remain hopeful that Iraq will emerge from this better off.

-Arrian

	02-06-2003 23:13									#170
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quote: before the Austia v. US shitfest

you have to hand it to HershOstropoler - his bitter and irrational lambasting and scapegoting on the US almost distracted me from seeing how pointless and irrelevant Austria is

	02-06-2003 23:28									#171
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Next round, my detraction shall succeed!

	02-06-2003 23:48									#172
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I also wonder whether the next Bush war is against Saudi Arabia. Those gay "divorces" can be nasty.

Local custom among friends of the same gender (opposite gender you'd never do it), but you can see how comfortable Bush feels.

One of the funniest stories I heard out of GW I was about Schwarzkopf and Khalid bin Sultan, his Saudi counterpart and commander of the Joint Forces Command (basically all the arab forces). Both were big - Schwarzkopf, 6'-3' and around 240 lbs, bin Sultan about the same. Schwarzkopf was an O-10, bin Sultan and O-9, and they used to hold hands around their HQ in Riyadh.

I can just imagine how much it must have hurt the enlisted pukes and lower level officers to see these guys holding hands around HQ, and you couldn't snicker, smirk, or even show any reaction that you noticed without getting your ass skinned alive.

	02-06-2003 23:52									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -You've crushed the Iraqi army more or less, but there is still the populace. It could get really ugly if they decided to rise up.

Yeah, a lot of them would get their asses killed if we stopped dancing around them and started treating them as hostile combatants.

quote: -Not yet. Anarchy still reigns. It's not as bad as in the first few days, but it's quite obvious from news reports that Iraq still lacks a functional government. If you think that's better than having a repressive government, you haven't considered the implications thereof.

I have. At least semi-functional government is on it's way - whether or not it's fast enough for some people's tastes, that is slowly coming together, as is a resumption of oil production and other economic activity.

Continuation of Saddam's regime meant ongoing plunder, repression, murder, torture, and sanctions.

	03-06-2003 00:05									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's still early - the occupation, I mean - and good can still come of this. I'm skeptical, and not particularly impressed so far, but I remain hopeful that Iraq will emerge from this better off.

The Bushies have just moved Iraqi self governance to an open future date. The problem is, even if Iraq is better off, I don't think the Iraqis will be happy with that. Continued US occupation, no matter how benevolent (and there's some big IFs in that), will be a problem in itself.

	03-06-2003 00:14									#175
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It's a delicate thing, Hersh, I know. But I'm sticking with "it's early" because, well, it is. Let's wait 'n see before deciding it's a huge failure, eh?

-Arrian

	03-06-2003 00:18									#176
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The problem is that the US is starting with little sympathy and credibility, so it was either get it right from the beginning or fail. Every little mistakes costs a lot to repair, if at all possible.

There have been so many screwups already - even "early" can be "too late". But well, I still give it the 1 % chance to succeed.

	03-06-2003 00:23									#177
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How generous & optimistic of you, Hersh! I'm touched.

-Arrian

	03-06-2003 00:31									#178
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Yes, I'm an optimist at heart.

	03-06-2003 00:33									#179
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler There have been so many screwups already - even "early" can be "too late". But well, I still give it the 1 % chance to succeed.

That's damned un-American and unpatriotic of you. I give it 2-3% myself.

	03-06-2003 00:35									#180
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Oh c'mon, if we get a new admin in next year I give it 20%