02-06-2003 10:41									#181
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If they didn't have to work there then why do they? When you go to McDonalds do you ask for the toilet brush so that you can clean the toilet because you just want to.

My response to that was probably somewhat facetious, but I think that in the few situations where crappy work is the only work, this is due to imperialism and disrespect for human rights, not capitalism. Most of these MNC-run economies are the result of the systematic and purposeful destruction of native economies, not inevitable results of a capitalist society.

	02-06-2003 10:42									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Cyclo:

quote: Would you like to define "cheap" for me?

In this instance, I was using 'cheap' to mean 'the lowest possible cost'. It is 'cheaper' to pay an illiterate Cambodian villager to put a shoe together than it is to pay some guy from Des Moines minimum wage.

quote: I think that capitalism does not depend on workers being paid below some arbitrary pay standard. I'm not a libertarian and I don't think that we should have completely unrestricted capitalism. Human rights exploitation is deplorable, but there are plenty of capitalist businesses that do not use such practices.

Yes, that's true. But the question was: "Does capitalism cause poverty", and it does. Even if some people have good intentions, there are many people and corporations who place currency above human life. They seek profit. Profit is the soul of capitalism. Hence, capitalism breeds poverty.

quote: Sh*t, if the communists get to say that 20th century communism wasn't "true communism," surely I can say that present day imperialism isn't "true capitalism."

You have a point there. I, too, am an advocate of a regulated free market... maybe, just maybe, with indicative planning (maybe... I don't pretend to have all the answers) . I think the soul of capitalism should revert back to entrepreneurship, and not corporate globalism (and its extreme profits), as is the current situation. When Wal-Marts drive out local businesses, we have to stop applauding and start getting PO'd.

quote: Then the workers don't have to work there, dammit. I sure wouldn't if they greased the wheels with my blood.

Assuming they have a choice (i.e. not just slaves), what would you rather have them do? They have to at least try to go to the factory and make that few cents... it's better than nothing. Maybe they'll be able to save at least one of their family members. Labourers in 3rd world countries have very few choices, obviously, for the most part: dead end traditional work (agriculture, perhaps), factories (or somehting similar), or crime. Many choose factories or sweatshops. I can't fault them.

	02-06-2003 10:46									#183
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 My response to that was probably somewhat facetious, but I think that in the few situations where crappy work is the only work, this is due to imperialism and disrespect for human rights, not capitalism.

You're a reasonable person. I hear that other comment here so much, but you're the first person who has said it that retracted it.

The reason capitalism creates poverty is because of profit. Profit must always increase or capitalism fails. Presure to keep profits increasing creates presure to keep wages down. Imperialism and abuse are just natural parts of capitalism.

	02-06-2003 10:49									#184
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Can't say I have, do you recemmend him?

Well, I don't personally agree with his perspective, but he proposes some very interesting ideas and points about human culture and "why things are the way they are." He just sounds like he might be right up your alley. If you're interested, it shouldn't be too hard to pick up a copy of "Ishmael" at your local library or bookstore.

	02-06-2003 10:50									#185
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Cool, sounds intriguing, I will give him a read sometime. Thanks Cyc.

	02-06-2003 11:04									#186
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cinch I think the soul of capitalism should revert back to entrepreneurship, and not corporate globalism (and its extreme profits), as is the current situation. When Wal-Marts drive out local businesses, we have to stop applauding and start getting PO'd.

Interresting thought... I have been thinking about the same,
which brings us back to ideologies...

Closest call: Liberalism.
Historically, this 'entrepreneurship' was described by Adam Smith, a pragmatic and an anti-monopolist. He wrote that it was in the interest of the market to function with many smaller entrepreneurs, or providers, and fair undisturbed conditions between them so the competion went smoothly and the demands were met. A selfgoing machinery in other words.

Monopolism later destroyed Adam Smiths visions. Fine theories, but as many other ideologies they worked out wrong... Thus, regulations were needed to support the market. Many countries did that, and prospered. (eg. democracies in Europe and to some degree America) And that's where politics come into play now...

	02-06-2003 11:06									#187
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The reason capitalism creates poverty is because of profit. Profit must always increase or capitalism fails.

Intriguing. Why must profit increase?

	02-06-2003 11:14									#188
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Because if you do not manage to increase profits and invest more, the competitors will surely take your share and increase theirs, and your profits will ultimately decrease as a result. This applies to a free competition market, and not neccesarily to a competition protected (regulated) market.


I can't post more here today, but I hope you have learned something about capitalism too, cyclo.

	02-06-2003 11:14									#189
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Intriguing. Why must profit increase?

Profit is the driving force. Profit is what makes capitalism dynamic. It determines how the resources will be distributed. Profits have to increase for economic growth, and growth is needed to maintain the current and future labor force and capital.

	02-06-2003 11:21									#190
	Got spare money?

Yeah, I just explained that, but relate it to Social-Liberal politics and you will have a safety network which would ensure human rights and welfare. Thus, more efficient workers. Holidays, fun, and pub-nights.

	02-06-2003 11:22									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Because if you do not manage to increase profits and invest more, the competitors will surely take your share and increase theirs, and your profits will ultimately decrease as a result. This applies to a free competition market, and not neccesarily to a competition protected (regulated) market.

That's understandable enough, but I don't advocate a free competition market.

quote: I can't post more here today, but I hope you have learned something about capitalism too, cyclo.

I've been sliding between this and writing a term paper, so I haven't been around as much as I'd like, but I have indeed learned something. Thanks.

	02-06-2003 11:26									#192
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Yeah, I just explained that, but relate it to Social-Liberal politics and you will have a safety network which would ensure human rights and welfare. Thus, more efficient workers. Holidays, fun, and pub-nights.

We're posting the same thing at the same time.

	02-06-2003 11:35									#193
	Put an end to popups!

Yeah, I guess we thought the same?!

I do advocate Liberal and Social policies/reforms combined with a liberal market. Everybody will get more rights and a good welfare state can prosper. Especially for Russia this is important now. And then we can all have more fun, and better health!

	02-06-2003 11:40									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That's pretty much my aim, too, a capitalist society with social reforms to promote our duties to others, prevent monopolization, encourage competition, etcetera.

Why all the arguing, anyway?

	02-06-2003 11:48									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A welfare state is expensive and doesn't always eliminate poverty though. Usually because the govt screws it up. The problem is that it tends to pay people for not working. Don't get me wrong though, I'm for welfare.

	02-06-2003 11:53									#196
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A welfare state is expensive and doesn't always eliminate poverty though. Usually because the govt screws it up. The problem is that it tends to pay people for not working. Don't get me wrong though, I'm for welfare.

Yes, valid concerns. We have our work cut out for us, it seems. I would say that only working people should be on welfare for more than a very short period of time... the government does tend to mess this up, but that doesn't mean the situation is intractable.

	02-06-2003 11:58									#197
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: whould a Provisional Government led Russia been able to defeat Germany, and yes, I think they would have

Are you talking WWI or WWII...in either case, you're wrong.

WWI - your hypothesis was tested and failed.
WWII - your hypothesis would assume that the provisional government isn't provisional anymore...not to mention that it assumes the communists didn't take over and sign Brest-Litovsk with Germany. Who knows how much worse it could have been for Russia if the Bolsheviks never seized power in Nov. 1917.

	02-06-2003 12:01									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

With welfare, I was not suggesting pay for not working.
More like rights for more holidays and leaves, security at work, free health care, free education, free dental care, and other welfare goods the community can budget for, and those most neccessary our law should ensure! So local communties must also have a solid economy. Kinda self-sufficent is the best.

Yeah, national governments tends to screw it up, and it makes people angry. Local governments are not managing their economy pretty well either. It's what happens here these days.

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 02-06-2003 at 12:06

	02-06-2003 12:01									#199
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Yes, valid concerns. We have our work cut out for us, it seems. I would say that only working people should be on welfare for more than a very short period of time... the government does tend to mess this up, but that doesn't mean the situation is intractable.

The best way is to maintain a lower unemployment rate. The system works the way it does because there aren't enough jobs.

	02-06-2003 12:06									#200
	Got spare money?

I feel it is necessary to provide some basic level of social services to ensure that people can all realize their capacity and try their hand at being an entrepreneur, making themselves better through capitalism. For me, this is basic free healthcare, education, and standard rights to keep people out of abysmal poverty.

	02-06-2003 12:09									#201
	Got spare money?

quote: Uber: The Kibbutzim are failing. After 3 generations, the children are moving to the city, the economies of the kibbutzim are a disaster and all in all that experiment is nearing its end.

That's more that 3 generations. And that happened all over the agro sector. the Kibbutzim are spending shitloads of money to keep people in, and this is not feasible in the agricultural sector.

OTOH, The Kibbutzim that have taken up manufacturing and tourism are doing much better. Also, many people that are tired from living in the city's noise and commotion are trying to Join a kibbutz.

	02-06-2003 12:10									#202
	Support Apolyton

quote: For me, this is basic free healthcare, education, and standard rights to keep people out of abysmal poverty.

Reasonable enough. The more people who falls into poverty, the more crime, corruption, and killings there will be. So it's important that governments no not screw welfare systems up.

	02-06-2003 12:11									#203
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

IF YOU DO A GOOGLE SEARCH ON HITLER & BUSH... AND THEN TURN UR MONITOR UPSIDE DOWN, YOU WILL SEE A NAKED PICTURE OF THE DEVIL DANCING ON TOP OF AN OLD TEXAN OIL WELL

(TRUE STORY)

	02-06-2003 12:17									#204
	Support Apolyton

A few comments:

1) The "human nature" argument to the effect that people will always be greedy is probably false. Human beings and their psychology are wholly physicalistic and therefore can be manipulated by physical means. We already do this to a significant degree with drugs and the like. In short human nature is malleable. People that think it isn't are usually basing their objection on some vague religious belief in a soul or in the "inviolable nature of the mind) - that stuff is just false.

2) An economy where everyone co-operates rationally for the common good will always do better than one in which groups of people compete. The only reason for using markets is that incentives provide efficiency gains given that people are monumentally selfish creatures. If this was removed from the equation (see 1) co-operation would be more efficent.

3) It isn't as if communism failed. Just look at the Keynesian policies that are still followed in many countries and the existence of some form of welfare state in most developed countries. There is a large degree of central planning and egalitarianism in these doctrines and they worked spectacularly well up to a point.

4) The notion that capitalist countries are better off than non-capitalist countries is a bit inaccurate. If you want to call capitalism what it really is, markets sustained by the use of force, then it isn't that remarkable. Include in the market all those people who make the things that we use for 2 cents a day and all the other poor souls who suffer so that we in wealthy countries can drive cars and drink coffee and you have a better idea of what is going on. We can't simply say that life in the US is better because of the political system it has - it is also better because the US uses force to ensure that the resources of other countries are used to benefit the citizens of the US and not the citizens of those countries (same goes for most of the rest of us rich people). Lesson - if you remember the sweatshops it's clear that capitalism has just moved the unpleasant Victorian working conditions offshore and out of site (preferably to a country where they shoot people if they ask for a raise).