02-06-2003 07:42									#91
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider What if this our purpose in this world is not owning the most possessions, but living in cooperation with all others? Certainly you would agree that capitalism is quite impractical for these ideals?

Yes, it is impractical for those ideals, but you assume that the goal of existence, our "purpose," is to live in cooperation and equality with others. I reject this notion, and I would instead propose that the purpose of a human being is to realize and be realized by others for reaching his vast potential as an individual.

	02-06-2003 07:43									#92
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quote: I thought you might say that .

You know me too well.

quote: It's done more than survived. It has obviously succeeded! The per capita income in this world is many, many, many (100s) of times what it was in 1800. That indicates success. The countries that have embraced capitalism have very good standards of living. Technology has exploded because of it. The world is richer and closer because of the success of capitalism.

Perhaps by some standards we are more wealthy, and rest assured, capitalism has brought us much progress than many other systems that mankind has created (feudalism, theocracy, and so on). But what is it that we call wealth? In reality, it is what makes us impoverished. True poverty, poverty of the spirit, to be wrapped up in greed and in one's possesions is the greatest poverty that one can inherit. So to that degree, capitalism's wealth that it has brought us is very limited.

quote: Has capitalism brought the suffering or was it already here? The latter is the correct answer. People who live under capitalism are much better than when those people did not live under the system. The poor are on much better grounds, and the entire society is richer and more successful.

Capitalism is by no means the originator of suffering, mankind has been doing quite well to inflict suffering upon one another well before the days of Adam Smith. Is capitalism better in relativism to other systems that mankind has tried? Absolutely. But regardless, any system in which so many suffer could never be considered even the smallest of successes any means.

	02-06-2003 07:46									#93
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quote: What if this our purpose in this world is not owning the most possessions, but living in cooperation with all others?

Your opinion on what our 'purpose' is, is simply irrelevant to me... because I don't agree with your purpose in the slightest.

quote: All I ask of you is this, is fundamentalism the best government in our world because one would consider it the best government in Civ 2? If you don't think it is, then you will find that you and I are ultimately in agreement.

Are you David Kucinek, or whoever that wacko running for President is? Simply: WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! What does the best government in Civ2 (which, btw, I think is Democracy) have to do with anything?!

	02-06-2003 07:46									#94
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In conclusion out of all my posts I will make this statement. Communism sounds nice on paper. So does the PRC's Airforce. More like poor or unserviceable in reality. Capitalism is truly the only system that will survive and win. It encourages development, advancement and greater improvement in our lives. We should endorse this system.

	02-06-2003 07:51									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Fez All systems have faults in them. It is just that capitalism has the least. Competition is the way it should be. I am a very competitive person. I mean no offense but competition attains cooperation. So your view is slightly skewed in my honest opinion on how the reality is. If there can be a large middle class, some upper class and a small lower class in every nation.. I would be more than happy. That is called capitalism. It works.

Good, you acknowledge that capitalism has faults. I have no need to worry about you then Fezzie Wezzie. Competetition can bring cooperation in an abstract sense, for example, mankind's competetition in capitalism has brought some progress, especially compared to feudalism. But ulitmately it cannot provide the cooperation that true cooperation can. Let me ask you this now, if there were a society could bring a higher standard of living for all, even wealthy capitalists like yourself, naturally you would embrace this society, correct?

	02-06-2003 07:53									#96
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IMO, for Communism to succeed, human culture itself would have to change. And here's why:

I like stuff. I like my computer, I like my car, I like my TV, I like movies. The reason these things exist as we know them, is because money exists. Somebody said, "I will make this computer, not because I want one, but because other people will give me money for them. And with that money, I can buy what I want!" Sure, materialism may be shallow. But it's fun. The only way Communism will exist, is if technology allows a near unlimited manufacturing capability, with almost zero effort. In essence, Communism can only exist if people can have what they want. And the free-market is the best way to determine demand for the things we want.

So Communism will exist in one of two ways:

1. People will stop liking stuff (highly unlikely)
2. We can make anything we want (again, unlikely, but who knows what the future holds?)

So my suggestion to Commies: invent replicators as seen in Star Trek, and pass them out to everyone... and you will have a completely non-violent revolution. Money will disappear, poverty will disapper. boom... there's your Utopia. All you will have to do then is stop people from killing each other and you're set.

	02-06-2003 07:55									#97
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Good, you acknowledge that capitalism has faults. I have no need to worry about you then Fezzie Wezzie.

Very few for that matter whereas communism has many. Communism itself is based on contradictions.

quote: Competetition can bring cooperation in an abstract sense, for example, mankind's competetition in capitalism has brought some progress, especially compared to feudalism.

It has brought tons of progress.. and this undeniable. What is it your typing on there? A keyboard? Where is that connected to? A computer? What invented these things? Capitalism.

quote: But ulitmately it cannot provide the cooperation that true cooperation can.

"It depends on what the mean of 'is' is" - Bill Clinton

You are evading the reality with a slur of words. You make a good public speaker.

But true cooperation is true capitalism.

quote: Let me ask you this now, if there were a society could bring a higher standard of living for all, even wealthy capitalists like yourself, naturally you would embrace this society, correct?

There can't be a higher standard of living for all. There always has to be somebody above you and somebody below you. It is called competition. If you don't have this, you don't have a system.

	02-06-2003 07:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Your opinion on what our 'purpose' is, is simply irrelevant to me... because I don't agree with your purpose in the slightest.

Fair enough, fair enough, don't worry about it.

quote: Are you David Kucinek, or whoever that wacko running for President is? Simply: WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! What does the best government in Civ2 (which, btw, I think is Democracy) have to do with anything?!

It has much in common with the discussion you and I are having now. Can I safely assume that you would agree, someone thinking that fundamentalism was the government in Civ 2 doesn't translate to it being the best government in our world. After all, Civ 2 is just a petty videogame, right? No relevence to the real world.

	02-06-2003 07:56									#99
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Fine, ignore me then, you bastards.

	02-06-2003 07:57									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So Communism will exist in one of two ways: 1. People will stop liking stuff (highly unlikely) 2. We can make anything we want (again, unlikely, but who knows what the future holds?)

Not so sure about 2, but like you said, who knows? You are mostly right on about 1. People will not completely stop wanting things, though perhaps they will for all intents and purposes, they will just realize that helping others is more important than owning that second big screen TV.

	02-06-2003 07:58									#101
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quote: But what is it that we call wealth? In reality, it is what makes us impoverished. True poverty, poverty of the spirit, to be wrapped up in greed and in one's possesions is the greatest poverty that one can inherit.

Totally disagree. What we call wealth is what makes us rich, rich in actuality and rich in spirit. Our greed and poverty make the world better for all. Create new marvals that improve the lives of everyone. Most poor use washing machines and watch TV. Their lives are enhanced by the greedy.

quote: But regardless, any system in which so many suffer could never be considered even the smallest of successes any means.

BULL... a system which has shown more progress than any other system mankind has created is definetly a success.

quote: if there were a society could bring a higher standard of living for all, even wealthy capitalists like yourself, naturally you would embrace this society, correct

The only problem is communism will NEVER be that society . Like Winston Churchill said, communism is about equality... equality of misery.

	02-06-2003 07:58									#102
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quote: Originally posted by JCG What I can't understand about his theories (and those of other Marxists) is how exactly did he expect the leadership of the revolution (AKA the dictatorship of the proletariat) to simply fade away and open the way to "true" communism and equality....or did he even consider that at all? Oh and....please wake me up when the revolution knocks at my door.

Good point.

In his Communist Manifesto, Marx wrote very little about this... Mostly assumtions of an utopian classless society where the people "ran themselves".

Lenin, however, had more depth theories on leadership of the revolution itself, and the 'aftermath phase'. (for using a term from the hysterically fun boardgame, Junta) The party 'cadres' should organize within a party, and Lenin descibed the properties of a party, functions, etc. Anyway, a party should lead the masses to success, he meant. That involved using force against all opposition... A party-dictatorship. Lenin assumed the 'party-dictatorship' would seize power by revolution, but cede control gradually some time afterwards. He never got the opportunity to see that fail. Instead, many people got the opportunity to see him dead.

So I guess communism is both Leninism (which is an authocratic leadership by a party) and Marxism (which is an utopia of a society no one has ever seen)


Speaking of that 'aftermath' part, Stalin succeeded to implement many of Lenins ideas so they actually worked and the classes dissappeared. However, after killing some millions defenseless people and forcing labour. As if that was not enough, he started to scare US-officials with hostile diplomacy, and thus the cold war started. US-officials got totally paranoid, and escalated the cold war even more. The rest of the story is pretty much propaganda on both sides...

Ok, did anyone feel more enlightened now?

	02-06-2003 07:59									#103
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quote: It has much in common with the discussion you and I are having now.

It has nothing in common.

	02-06-2003 07:59									#104
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider they will just realize that helping others is more important than owning that second big screen TV.

Communism doesn't mean helping others. It means imprisionment.

Capitalism means helping others. It means freedom and liberation for all.

	02-06-2003 08:00									#105
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quote: Fine, ignore me then, you bastards.

That's because you are right .

	02-06-2003 08:04									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Very few for that matter whereas communism has many. Communism itself is based on contradictions.

Perhaps Marxist communism, but true communism is really quite simple, "love your neighbor as yourself" as one great socialist revolutionary once said.

quote: It has brought tons of progress.. and this undeniable. What is it your typing on there? A keyboard? Where is that connected to? A computer? What invented these things? Capitalism.

Sorry to nitpick, but actually people invented these things, not capitalism. Yes, many of these inventions were created by people in a capitalist society, but don't worry capitalism is not a prequisite for advancing technology by any means.

quote: There can't be a higher standard of living for all. There always has to be somebody above you and somebody below you. It is called competition. If you don't have this, you don't have a system.

Ah, you assume too much my friend. There doesn't have to be "someone above and below" as you say. Perhaps you disagree, but don't worry. So can I assume that you would support such a society if it were possible? Certainly you wouldn't drive a tank in the middle of the street as you said earlier against a system that makes your life profoundly better.

	02-06-2003 08:09									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's because you are right .

Damn, I hate being right.

monkspider:

quote: Ah, you assume too much my friend. There doesn't have to be "someone above and below"

No two humans are equal in ability, intelligence, pysical prowess, creativity, etcetera. There is already above and below, that is as natural as humanity. In fact, I would say that it is humanity. A society of humans should respect and be based on the fact that humans are innately different, and that there will always be some above and some below.

	02-06-2003 08:09									#108
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quote: but actually people invented these things, not capitalism.

Without capitalism these things most likely would not be invented. The rate of technological progress, which is required under capitalism is what has allowed us to have this high standard of living. The people were following capitalism. It would not have happened if there was no self-interest involved.

Capitalism is definetly a pre-requisite for the boom in technology which has led to all the inventions that you say were made by people. Without it, I doubt it'd even exist. Hell, I doubt most of the things we've invented in the last 100 years would exist right now.

	02-06-2003 08:09									#109
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Perhaps Marxist communism, but true communism is really quite simple, "love your neighbor as yourself" as one great socialist revolutionary once said.

I am atheist. I am also a right wing radical. I am a capitalist. And I will die for my beliefs.

quote: Sorry to nitpick, but actually people invented these things, not capitalism.

Capitalism inspired these people to do so. Inventions they thought can bring them gain and profit. But they also do it for the betterment of mankind. One of the founding principles of capitalism is the betterment of mankind.

quote: Yes, many of these inventions were created by people in a capitalist society, but don't worry capitalism is not a prequisite for advancing technology by any means.

Yes it is. It totally is that. Capitalism has spurred these people to pick up their hands and make something because they know they can only win by doing so.

quote: Ah, you assume too much my friend. There doesn't have to be "someone above and below" as you say. Perhaps you disagree, but don't worry. So can I assume that you would support such a society if it were possible?

Yes there has to be. That is what competition is about.

quote: Certainly you wouldn't drive a tank in the middle of the street as you said earlier against a system that makes your life profoundly better.

A system that makes my life profoundly better is capitalism. I would embrace the system.

The only system I will ride a tank against is communism. It will only imprision my future and the future of countless millions. It must be struck off.

	02-06-2003 08:12									#110
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So you are calling Jesus a socialist?
What do you base that on, being able to feed 1000 people with a bread and a few fishes?

	02-06-2003 08:14									#111
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I will be back shortly gents, I have a few things to take care of. But fear not! I will try to respond to everyone's recent posts to the best of my ability. I apologize if it seems I have been ignoring some posters, but it is difficult to keep up conversations with many at once.

	02-06-2003 08:15									#112
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The people of Apolyton versus Monkspider.

You even got Sava against you.

	02-06-2003 08:17									#113
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Why are so many commies atheists? You'd think that an ideaology that has failed in such a spectactular fashion wouldn't attract that many adhearents. Faith springs eternal for us all I suppose.

	02-06-2003 08:17									#114
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Yeah, monkspider. It's a big darn thread. Well, I just made this analysis of Leninism above here, so if you're one of those wannabe commies you ought to take a look at it and be enlightened by my wisdom...


You know... they shot people like me, back then.
Cause we knew too much, and created our own opinions.

	02-06-2003 08:20									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why are so many commies atheists? You'd think that an ideaology that has failed in such a spectactular fashion wouldn't attract that many adhearents. Faith springs eternal for us all I suppose.

Well I am athiest.. and some think the exact opposite of a communist. I am no fascist.. but I am on the right.

	02-06-2003 08:26									#116
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quote: they will just realize that helping others is more important than owning that second big screen TV.

Don't hold your breath man...

quote: You even got Sava against you.

nah, I'm not against him, I just think he's wrong. And monk, no offense, but when you speak of a grand revolution happening in the near future, I wonder if you are posting with an aluminum foil pyramid hat on your head.

quote: Why are so many commies atheists? You'd think that an ideaology that has failed in such a spectactular fashion wouldn't attract that many adhearents. Faith springs eternal for us all I suppose.

True communism AFAIK is more about keeping faith private rather than the absence of it. The Russian Orthodox church, while repressed, did remain strong in the Soviet system. Which was quite amazing considering the Soviet system was very repressive.

Just because one doesn't believe in your God, doesn't mean they are incapable of having faith in other areas DD. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Christianity is... well... inconsistent and most likely wrong. The same could be said about Communism too, I guess. Plus, atheism and Communism are seperate issues. One doesn't require the other.

	02-06-2003 08:27									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well I am athiest.. and some think the exact opposite of a communist. I am no fascist.. but I am on the right.

Good point... Fez is a shining example of atheism and anti-Communism.

	02-06-2003 08:28									#118
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DinoDoc...

As one ancient communist once said:

quote: Religion is the opium of the masses. They're blind and follow like sheep. - F. Engels

However, for a communist, his ideology has become his religion.
So the quote applies to them as well. And bourgois rightwingers too. Haha.

	02-06-2003 08:35									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Sava True communism AFAIK is more about keeping faith private rather than the absence of it.

Strange. Most of the Poly commies can get quite evangelical at times, especially when these threads pop up. They wouldn't be such a good troll toipic if it weren't true. Where is Imran when I need him? He had such an interesting theory on the similarities between communism and religion, IIRC.

	02-06-2003 08:37									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Strange. Most of the Poly commies can get quite evangelical at times, especially when these threads pop up. They wouldn't be such a good troll toipic if it weren't true. Where is Imran when I need him? He had such an interesting theory on the similarities between communism and religion, IIRC.

If your knowledge and perception of all Communists is based upon the online rantings on 'Poly... well... @ you