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cyclotron7
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Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
I will try to create a post addresses many of Imran and Cyclo's posts at once, so bear with me and I apologize in advance if there are some points that go unaddressed |
All is forgiven. 
quote:
Some disagree with my ideal of purpose. That is to say, to achieve a state of evolution that will result in communism is our ultimate purpose in this world. That is fine, and I don't blame them for disagreeing. All I can say is this, one day soon, you will begin to see things in a similar way. I know that sounds arrogant, I know you think I'm out of my gourd. |
I don't think you're crazy, I just don't think what you are saying can be taken seriously if your justification for it is a worldview that you have not argued, even feebly, to be true. I mean, I'm willing to entertain arguments about whether equality is the purpose of human existence, but I'll need some arguments for it first.
quote:
Now the logical next question is, how are you so sure of this... [abridged] Now, what does this have to do with communism you ask? Nothing, except that coming to this conclusion inevitably results in a realization of responsiblity, that we are all symbiotically tied to each other, and what harms another, harms ourself. When we realize this, we will inevitably pursue a life of cooperation, or, communism as some have come to call it. But call it whatever you wish. |
This isn't really a coherent argument, but if it was I would say that you are leaping to conclusions. Having a sense of responsibility, and even having a sense of responsibility to other people, does not lead to Communism. I, for example, see my responsibility to others as a duty to create for them conditions in which they can express themselves and advance themselves as individuals to the very limits of their human capacity. In other words, my responsibility to others is my committment to freedom.
Capitalism, as far as I can tell, harms nobody in of itself. To me, the greatest harm we can do to each other is to limit the potential and drive of our fellow man. In this way, I view communism as one of the greatest immoralities of our time, because it encourages an abdication of responsibility (especially responsibility to the self) and because it limits that which, in my view, makes us human (thus, it is unnatural and degrading).
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by cyclotron7
Capitalism, as far as I can tell, harms nobody in of itself. To me, the greatest harm we can do to each other is to limit the potential and drive of our fellow man. In this way, I view communism as one of the greatest immoralities of our time, because it encourages an abdication of responsibility (especially responsibility to the self) and because it limits that which, in my view, makes us human (thus, it is unnatural and degrading). |
Well don't worry. I support the same things that you do. Freedom, working as hard as possible, etc. I'm really quite a bit of a libertarian in many ways. I'm not advocating some central apparatus to arbitrarily redistribute wealth. That was an invention of 20th century communism, a communism that was a result of a humanity in it's adolescence. A point in our growth where we began identifying and expressing our needs, desires, and rights, with adulthood will come the responsibilty that I spoke of earlier. Again I do apologize if it seemed that I was ignoring you earlier, but this is a fast moving forum. 
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cinch
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
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quote:
Capitalism itself is not to blame for their poverty. |
It most certainly is.
I'm not a communist, but I can still see the fact that poverty is necessary for capitalism (in the Fezzian 'corporatist' sense). Capitalism is all about profit, and an integral part of maximising profit is having cheap production costs (i.e. labour). It's not as visible in the developed countries, but if you take a quick peak at Latin American or East Asian Wal-Mart or Nike factories, then it becomes quite obvious that the wheels of capitalism (or, at least, multinational corporatism, which is one of the major byproducts of capitalism) are greased with the blood of the workers.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by cyclotron7
You're being very nebulous about what exactly "communism" means to you, in a functional sense. You're not really telling me anything about Communism, just assuring me that what you think is similar to what I think in some general, equally nebulous way. |
You're right, you're right. I use "communism" because it is closest to what I am describing in that it represents a society of humanity living for the benefit of all. All I know in terms of a historical precedent is that it will most closely resemble various Native American tribes, that's not say that we will go back to living in tepees mind you, or that our technology will suddenly go back several hundred years. In fact, in some ways, humanity will become the new technology, for instance, one thing that we will be able to do is control the weather, interestingly enough. But anyway, that is the closest thing that I can give you for a historical precedent.
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02-06-2003 09:36
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