02-06-2003 20:18									#1
	F-16 down. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

(translation)

quote: F-16 fighting aircraft fallen and crushed at 13:05 noon, 3 miles east of the aerodrome of Ageialou while flying at an altitude of 1.500 feet. Fortunately the pilot of the aircraft, Sminagos (mil term) Theodore Pliatsikas, managed to use to system of automatic thrust of his seat and is good in his health. helicopter of the Military Airforce has transported the pilot, for cautionary reasons, to the 251 general Hospital of the Airforce. According to initial assessments the fall of the aircraft is due to the suck in of a bird in the tourbine.

And my euglote question: a damn expensive equipment as is the F16 can go down because of a damn bird? And we aren't why be training pigeons as defence mechanisms?

	02-06-2003 20:20									#2
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Hell, yes, a bird can take down a plane.
The amazing part is at such a low-level the guy was ok.

	02-06-2003 20:21									#3
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Possibly... but I only heard about smaller Cessnas doing this.. crashing because they were hit by birds... but many.

	02-06-2003 20:23									#4
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"And my euglote question: a damn expensive equipment as is the F16 can go down because of a damn bird?"

Think about it... the turbines are supposed to be feeding air to the engine. When a bird hits a fan that is going thousands of RPM's a minute, that fan is toast.

	02-06-2003 20:25									#5
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A bird can make a real mess of the inside of a jet engine. Of course, it also makes a real mess of the bird but that must be small consolation to the bird.

This has always been a problem with jet aircraft,particularly on take off and landing and short of trying to scare birds away from airfields no-one has come up with a good answer.

Incidentally, F 16's aren't expensive. They are obsolescent and mediocre airplanes. F 22's and Eurofighters are expensive.

	02-06-2003 20:27									#6
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An F-16 mediocre and obsolescent? Sure they might of been around for twenty years but they are hardly mediocre.

	02-06-2003 20:27									#7
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Well, they're expensive if you're, you know, the Greek government.

	02-06-2003 20:29									#8
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An F-16 is not a rifle hence it is expensive, for any government. And unfortunately the Greek gov. will be amongst a handful of EU govs to buy Eurofighters too, and build them.

http://www.eurofighter.com/Default.asp?Flash=True

	02-06-2003 20:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Fez An F-16 mediocre and obsolescent? Sure they might of been around for twenty years but they are hardly mediocre.

If they're that cheap, maybe we can order some for the USS Apolyton.

	02-06-2003 20:33									#10
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F-22's, I don't believe, aren't even in use yet.

	02-06-2003 20:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 An F-16 is not a rifle hence it is expensive, for any government. And unfortunately the Greek gov. will be amongst a handful of EU govs to buy Eurofighters too, and build them. http://www.eurofighter.com/Default.asp?Flash=True

My country is buying and building Eurofighters too.

But we are also buying F-18s.

	02-06-2003 20:35									#12
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F 16's are cheap for the airframe and engine. What costs is how good a radar and weapons fit you equip them with. The US and Israeli planes are pretty good, the Greek and other european NATO planes are not.

It is all relative but the planes coming into service over the next five to ten years are a lot more capable than any F 16, as well as vastly more expensive.

It is still a lot of money to lose compared to the cost of a pigeon though.

	02-06-2003 20:35									#13
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They show up on the radar of countries that use SAM-2 and 3 missiles.

The new ones supposedly don't.

They can only track a few targets at a time.

The F-22 can aquire something like a dozen targets at once so that it can't be overwhelmed by a swarm of ancient Chinese MiGs as easily.

They are more nimble than the F-22, but that's something you want if you plan on actually fighting a real air force, which is only a consideration for Pakistan and India (Pakistan uses F-16s I believe. They probably don't have the dough to upgrade yet).

Canada still uses the very old CF-18. It's had lots of uprades, but it's still old. Since it would be major part of Canada's contribution to any war in our interest, they should really be replaced with F/A-18s that can work with our yankee 'friends' more easily. As it is, they are in danger of becoming 'symbolic' like our armoured forces.

	02-06-2003 20:35									#14
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F-16s can be equiped with plenty of extras (electronic warfare comes to mind) and are themselves versatile and upgraded. Eventually though they will become obsolete but are not now, definitely.

	02-06-2003 20:36									#15
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F-16's cost about $20M each. The F-22's cost about $100-150M each! Crazy!

	02-06-2003 20:36									#16
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Suicidal pigeons

	02-06-2003 20:37									#17
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Greek F16s are the best and most expensively equiped and for good reason.

Greek pilots rate second after the US ones in NATO exercises and Israelis are 3rd.

	02-06-2003 20:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Greek F16s are the best and most expensively equiped and for good reason.

Yeah you got the Turks breathing down your neck with 200 F-16s of their own.

	02-06-2003 20:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Suicidal pigeons

We should train pigeons to go and **** up take offs at enemy airports.

	02-06-2003 20:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Yeah you got the Turks breathing down your neck with 200 F-16s of their own.

We have superiority in the air and sea vis a vis the Turks.

Luckily they are stuck with F-16s for a long time sicne they built a factory there while we move up to Eurofighters.

But yes that's why we got lots and good planes, because of the Turks. I hope they wise up and stop bugging us and make us waste money for them.

	02-06-2003 20:39									#21
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 We should train pigeons to go and **** up take offs at enemy airports.

Or just stop using the airforce. When enemy jets are closing in.. sending some pigeons up to clog the engines.

	02-06-2003 20:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Greek F16s are the best and most expensively equiped and for good reason.

Well the Greek government would say that, wouldn't they. Otherwise they would have no excuse for locking up people for looking at their F 16's.

	02-06-2003 20:41									#23
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They don't need to say even that since they broke the law.

	02-06-2003 20:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 We have superiority in the air and sea vis a vis the Turks.

I am forced to disagree with that point. I'll provide your proof.

http://www.mylima.com/airforce/t2.htm#TURKEY
http://www.mylima.com/airforce/g2.htm#GREECE

The Turks outnumber you in terms of Aircraft.

The Greek Navy:
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/europe/greece.htm

Nothing really to brag about. A bunch of 20+ year old ships. Some are nearly 40 years old.

The Turkish Navy:
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/europe/turkey.htm

Much more modern in all respects. Includes a bulk of US OH Perry Frigates.

quote: But yes that's why we got lots and good planes, because of the Turks. I hope they wise up and stop bugging us and make us waste money for them.

LOL.... you really got to think about upgrading that Navy.

	02-06-2003 20:44									#25
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Your sources are incorrect, as were before.

	02-06-2003 20:45									#26
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We also have superiority on land if you count mech. infantry and not the amount of soldiers.

	02-06-2003 20:45									#27
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Your sources are incorrect, as were before.

What a load of BS.. provide something to prove my sources wrong.

	02-06-2003 20:46									#28
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Besides, the fact that you are Fez and everything you say is a priori wrong, your sources are wrong too. I'm too bored to prove you wrong. You just are.

	02-06-2003 20:46									#29
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quote: A bird can make a real mess of the inside of a jet engine. Of course, it also makes a real mess of the bird but that must be small consolation to the bird.

Must...resist...temptation........to....easy....
and it's not 'birdstrike's it's called 'engine suck'

	02-06-2003 20:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 We also have superiority on land if you count mech. infantry and not the amount of soldiers.

Again I am forced to disagree with that. The Turks have a superior amount of field armor including Tanks, ranging from M-48s, M-60s and newer Leopards. About a thousand more from what I heard.