05-06-2003 00:41									#31
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Do any whites live there?

	05-06-2003 00:41									#32
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i think its gret the europeans are doing this. I dont know that many are need - IIRC Alison des Forges has said that 2000 could have stopped the genocide in Rwanda. I think thats the idea here.

	05-06-2003 00:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Do any whites live there?

Humanitarian aid workers, UN personnel, possibly some clerics. Good enough for you to piss on?

	05-06-2003 00:56									#34
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not enough to have a reason not to nuke the area

	05-06-2003 01:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion not enough to have a reason not to nuke the area

Great minds..

	05-06-2003 01:12									#36
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Great minds think alike...

but then:

Fools seldom differ... or was it?

	05-06-2003 01:13									#37
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OK, I'm the great mind and you're the fool. Compromise?

	05-06-2003 01:17									#38
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There's a lot of natural resources in the country. Of cource the EU would want to get their fingers into it and get some connections for the future. I'm eager to find out if there's something special about the region of Ituri in this regard. A battalion can do nothing for the millions already dead in the country.

	05-06-2003 01:20									#39
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Question for the military experts: what can 1400 soldiers do to stabilize an instable region full of rivalizing militias?

Get killed or embarresed.

quote: Politically it is interesting because for the first time, the EU acts militarily on its own (some operations on the Balkan are now also under EU control, but they started as NATO ops). Could be a model for further operations.

It will likely end badly, and that is not a knock on Europe, it's a knock on the inane UN peace keeping missions.

	05-06-2003 01:22									#40
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Well duh, that wasn't hard to find info about :
"The northern and eastern regions of the DRC, which are under the control of Congolese armed groups sponsored by Rwanda and Uganda, are rich in many precious resources, including diamonds, coltan, gold, and timber."

from:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/drc04282003.html

	05-06-2003 01:46									#41
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So why jump to the conlusion that the French, the Belgians etc are also in it for the resources? Why wouldn't we just cut a deal with the powers-that-be and avoid all the risk of seeing men returning in bodybags?

	05-06-2003 02:12									#42
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I'm not saying that's the only reason or even the reason. I just predicted that it's probably something special about the region and voila! It would seem strange that they would take a risk of seeing men returing in bodybags just to protect some locals.

	05-06-2003 02:29									#43
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I wish those guys luck. I don't envy them.

-Arrian

	05-06-2003 02:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I'm not saying that's the only reason or even the reason. I just predicted that it's probably something special about the region and voila! It would seem strange that they would take a risk of seeing men returing in bodybags just to protect some locals.

It is what they did in Ivory Coast recently, not to mention all western people evacuated including 300 american citizens.

	05-06-2003 02:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion anyone here read Todd's most recent book?

The end of the empire ? Yes I did.

	05-06-2003 03:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Read my previous post. I think the basic idea is to create a safe haven in the area, which could be very valuable to refugees and also in order to ship humanitarian aid into the region.

If your safe haven is porous, and/or you don't have heavy weapons support and airmobility, 1,400 troops on the ground can't do much, even in a small area. Look at UNISOM I for a good example.

1,400 sounds like a decent number, until you factor in support troops (clerks, maintenance, mess hall, medical, signals, etc.) which don't give you nearly the combat posture as line troops will, and the fact that you can't pull 50% or 100% night alerts all the time.

Three airmobile brigades, OTOH, could rapidly take the war to the militias and rebels all over the country, and break their asses pretty quick, although it would be a while before you could train competent national forces to maintain stability. A long while. Another problem is that the resource richer areas of Congo (Katanga especially) have always been a bit secessionist, so "national" troops wouldn't be particularly welcome.

	05-06-2003 03:16									#47
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I'm not at all sympathetic at all that EU "peacekeeping" business I have to say. 90% of the time it's interests as with most "peacekeeping missions".

	05-06-2003 03:22									#48
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At least it's... something.

to the 1400.

	05-06-2003 03:22									#49
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Yes, the world would be a much better place if we just allowed rampant genocide. Who are we to interfere?

	05-06-2003 03:25									#50
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I'm also not at all comfortable to be part of an expedition i dont know almost anything about.

	05-06-2003 03:38									#51
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You going?

	05-06-2003 03:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You going?

Mark might be. Has he told any of you where he's being posted?

quote: Yes, the world would be a much better place if we just allowed rampant genocide.

It's in Africa. Who cares?

	05-06-2003 03:40									#53
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no, but soldiers dont decide for themselves governments do for them and governments should not be unchecked but be ruled by the people hence my simingly pretentious attitude of being involved in it.

and "peacekeeping" has always been a nice dressing for furthering interests, for the most part as I said. i'm sure the EU hasnt passed on to another level of esoterical enlightnment to start being an exception to that sad rule. so a general caution until we know more.
Congo was a rich belgian colony BTW wasnt it?

	05-06-2003 03:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Yes, the world would be a much better place if we just allowed rampant genocide. It's in Africa. Who cares?

I don't recall anything in my religious studies that the value of one human life is inherently less than the value of another, just because of where mommy and daddy happened to be from.

If that don't work for you, though, Africa has tons of valuable resources, and if someone can fix the place up, it's a nice potential marketplace.

	05-06-2003 03:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I don't recall anything in my religious studies that the value of one human life is inherently less than the value of another, just because of where mommy and daddy happened to be from.

I'm an equal opportunity uncaring bastard. I was against intervening in the Balkans as well.

	05-06-2003 03:49									#56
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its funny... "peacekeeping" while at the same time forcing them to give up their donations to their farmers in order to enter to free trade agreements while we keep ours to our farmers... no wonder african exploitation by the west has risen 3fold the last ten years
and tons of "little" things like that.. including forceful campaigns for poweder milk instead of breat one resulting in tons of child deaths due to bad water but hey nestle made a profit.

just doesnt click

	05-06-2003 03:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Mark might be. Has he told any of you where he's being posted? quote: Yes, the world would be a much better place if we just allowed rampant genocide. It's in Africa. Who cares?

Even the Greek army wouldn't have him trained up and assigned to a unit this fast. IIRC, he did mention where he was going, but it sounded like REMF staff duty.

	05-06-2003 03:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm an equal opportunity uncaring bastard. I was against intervening in the Balkans as well.

I have an inherent interest in empire. I like the idea of filling up power vacuums around underutilized resources. Call it a long term global dominance strategy.

	05-06-2003 03:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I like the idea of filling up power vacuums around underutilized resources. Call it a long term global dominance strategy.

1400 people without adequate arms or rules of engagement (as is common in these peacekeeping missions to places without peace to keep) won't get you very far in filling a vaccum of any sort.

	05-06-2003 04:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 its funny... "peacekeeping" while at the same time forcing them to give up their donations to their farmers in order to enter to free trade agreements while we keep ours to our farmers... no wonder african exploitation by the west has risen 3fold the last ten years and tons of "little" things like that.. including forceful campaigns for poweder milk instead of breat one resulting in tons of child deaths due to bad water but hey nestle made a profit. just doesnt click

The Rwanda/ Congo genocide that happened some years ago, with the Western countries being silent, surely made a lot more victims than the milk campaign.

I'd be very happy if this mission could avoid this kind of consequences. But maybe you'd prefer the EU to do nothing, as we brilliantly did the last time...