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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Where's the dotted line?
There is none. You only have to wait a bit for China to get thier act together and then we can go back to a bipolar world. Unless you want a multipolar world, in which case the EU had better hurry up.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Sheesh Dan, what you're doing there is presenting full-blown speculation as facts.

Not at all. Creating a multipolar world is almost stated French policy. The only way to do that is to create another power pole and to minimize the existing hyper-puissance. Right?

Be careful to what ends you're working for!


Hyper-puissance : courtesy of Hubert Vedrines, former Minister of foreign affairs; again a gift from the French.

There is no need to minimize the existing hyper-puissance, and as other powers will grow, there is no desire either. But working for a stronger Europe, why not?

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:21
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No need for us to hurry up. Even with Bush & co, America's decline won't be too rapid.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:23
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What makes the US a hyperpower?

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:23 Visit DanS's homepage!
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They would have to wait 50 years for China and 70 years for India to get their acts together. France is looking out on much shorter time frame.

Hershell: It seems like just a description of a unipolar power. Since we haven't had one of those for a good long while, there is some exceptionalism of language.

Btw, I don't agree that we are an hyper puissance. More like a weak unipole.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
France is looking out on much shorter time frame.
France lacks the resources and the rest of the EU seems to lack the will to mount the kind of effort your hinting at DanS.

DanS is offline DanS
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:27 Visit DanS's homepage!
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France lacks the resources

Precisely. That's why they will try to rope others into the game. Of course, this is fine, if the others go in with their eyes open.

and the rest of the EU seems to lack the will

I agree. But that could change.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
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Nov 2002
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS

Hershell: It seems like just a description of a unipolar power. Since we haven't had one of those for a good long while, there is some exceptionalism of language.



It's often used to mean an exceptional situation in history. Which is, of course, utter bullshit. No wonder it is endorsed furiously by the american right and the european left.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:30 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Which is, of course, utter bullshit.

I wouldn't call it utter bullshit. More like mostly bullshit. The kernel of truth among the bullshit is that the US is a unipolar power right now.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:33
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Unipolar to some extent. But its influence outside its borders varies a lot, in most of the world it's pretty weak. Even militarily, though that's just one aspect of power, there are serious constraints.

So the hyperpower thing as I described it above is utter bullshit. In your weaker understanding, it's just a misnomer.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:34 Visit DanS's homepage!
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No wonder it is endorsed furiously by . . . the european left.

Chirac is not the left. The cancer appears to be growing.

DanS is offline DanS
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:37 Visit DanS's homepage!
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In your weaker understanding, it's just a misnomer.

Be careful how things sound in the English language.

I agree that it is just a misnomer, if the US is a weak unipole, as I believe it to be. Or "mostly bullshit", if you wish.

But its influence outside its borders varies a lot, in most of the world it's pretty weak.

I agree. But then again, it doesn't need to be strong, because there are no real rivals. And we've never had the desire to be good at empire, anway.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:38
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"Be careful how things sound in the English language."

Because of "weak"? Has the same ambiguity in german...

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:42 Visit DanS's homepage!
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It's more like the interaction between the words in "your weaker understanding".

I guess the French are just following a trend. Supermodels ain't so super anymore. But "hypermodel" doesn't seem to fit...

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:49 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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You're american DanS, polish american.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:51
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Dan, that's what I meant. Sheesh.

First year lawyer training.

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
  Old Post 05-06-2003 20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
No. I view Congo as influence trying to be bought cheaply.


Get a sense of perspective. Bunia is 2000 kilometres away from Kinshasa, it's not even a major city in the region. And it's again half a continent away from Katanga

There are three major rebels forces, that fight each other as much as they used to fight Kabila sr. Those 3 are nominally led by 2 neighbours that are constantly drawn back in because of their own civil wars, willingly or otherwise. Then you have dozens of murderous militia that would make Saddam blush in their cruelty, and then a couple of ethnic conflicts to sugarcoat it all.
Concepts like central authorithy, infrastructure, education and healthcare are nearly non-existent there. Heck that state called "Democratic Republic of Congo" exists only in nominal terms.

What kind of influence is there to be won? Some town on the edge of the biggest hellhole on Earth? Sure, that's a great price alright.

cinch is offline cinch
Chieftain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 04:29
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Related Article:

****************************
MPs want Canada to take lead in Congo
Last Updated Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:36:00
OTTAWA - A multi-party group of parliamentarians called on Canada to lead the way in stopping the mass killings in Congo.


"The prime minister should now place wake-up calls to the international community," said Liberal MP Irwin Cotler.

Cotler was joined at a news conference on Parliament Hill by the Canadian Alliance's Keith Martin, Francine Lalonde of the Bloc Québécois, and New Democrat Libby Davies.


They all want Canada to do more to stop the bloodshed in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where more than three million people have died since 1997.

"This is a genocide," said Martin. "We have done almost nothing to stop it."

The UN decided last week to send 1,400 troops to Ituri province, where hundreds of people have been killed over the past few weeks in ethnic fighting. Canada is sending aircraft and as many as 50 personnel.

"Too little and very late," Cotler said.

Martin said a "peace-making force" was needed. He called on the international community to put pressure on Congo's neighbours – Uganda, Rwanda, Zimbabwe – to stop arming proxy forces in the conflict.

****************************************

All... parties... agreeing?

Hopefully this will be productive.

Lonestar is offline Lonestar
Prince
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 04:58 Visit Lonestar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
no wimpy peacekeepers indeed...the French will send in some very good forces.








Maybe the Legionaires...if they aren't too busy killing the Ivory Coastians.

If there are only 1400 troops deployed "Including mechanized forces", said French mechanized forces would make the Stryker look like heavy armor.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
Question  Old Post 06-06-2003 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by cinch
All... parties... agreeing?

Hopefully this will be productive.
Isn't Canada stretched a little thin right now with signifigant commitments in Bosnia (remember them?) and sending troops to Afghanistan? I think this is little more than a feel good exercise for Cretin.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro


I´m not sure we have three airmobile brigades


IIRC, you don't, between all the EU members.

You should have, though.

cinch is offline cinch
Chieftain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 06:58
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DD:

quote:
Isn't Canada stretched a little thin right now with signifigant commitments in Bosnia (remember them?) and sending troops to Afghanistan? I think this is little more than a feel good exercise for Cretin.


That's why we're only sending 50 people and some materials (eg. planes). It's too little, yes (as if the 1400), but it's a start.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 07:16
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They should send 2REP, some parachute commandos, true fighters of all origins and kick some ass. These guys as absolute machines let me tell you that much, after seeing their training videos.. just fill few Hercules planes with these guys and it will be over in no time.

I think, maybe peacekeepers COULD be correct move for this situation. I don't agree, that many times when peacekeepers has been sent, that it was a wise move. Often too early. They're supposed to be sent after the fighting. This way, they only let both or all sides strengthen too much, supply them all, just waiting it to blow in their hands. I think the aftermath can be worse this way. I'm all for strong attacks, pounding both sides violating the rules and when they're weak and dead, then send the peacekeepers.

I think they should let this operation go to some PMC. These guys are _effective_ and perhaps the most professional and skilled. It would be cost effective too. When ever it gets hairy, send these guys in. I was too lazy to read this thread because it was so long, but I assume this is about those pygmis being in trouble with some cannibals who thinks eating them is a good idea?
If so, don't send peacekeepers. Send PMC operatives who makes it clear that if you eat these little guys, you get shot right in the face. Should work. Or if it's about rebels who are illegal and criminal, again, if you continue you get shot for sure. When they are all dead or surrendered, then send the peacekeepers.

Chemical Ollie is offline Chemical Ollie
Prince
Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 12:02
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Why don't you go Pekka? Sweden is sending troops, isn't Finland?

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


IIRC, you don't, between all the EU members.

You should have, though.


If that's the case, we should buy those toys.

LoneWolf is offline LoneWolf
Settler

Feb 2001
time: 23:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 12:16
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Someone earlier said they were wondering when the Americans would jump in here and ruin it all for you (well, not quite that, but close). Interesting that none really have.
As far as I can see, most Amis have given up on this Forum.
Have fun now, ya'll!

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


IIRC, you don't, between all the EU members.

You should have, though.


The Uk has one, The French have one, I would have thoguth the Germans could rustle one up.

The Spanish and Italians could probaly form one jointly.

Of course whether they want to is another matter.

panag is offline panag
Emperor
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 20:15 Visit panag's homepage!
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hi ,

today the belgians came up with operation "Mamba" , two c-130's and a small airbus or boeing together with 18 people , mainly medics , ......

ones again the belgian gov has not learnt from its mistakes in 94 , no protection goes along , there are going to be made some agreements with the french on security but no details as of today yet , .....

and while the whole world talks and does not act a human drama unfolds itself ones more in africa , .....

all it would take would be MTG's units and about six months to two years , .......

but that seems to be to much effort from the world , ....

have a nice day

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 06-06-2003 21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger


The Uk has one, The French have one, I would have thoguth the Germans could rustle one up.

The Spanish and Italians could probaly form one jointly.

Of course whether they want to is another matter.


Airmobile, or paras?

Germany, Spain and Italy certainly have the constituent parts, but the integration of those into a cohesive force takes time - getting everyone used to working together in the sort of high-intensity specialized support you need for airmobile warfare.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
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  Old Post 06-06-2003 21:30
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Olaf, peacekeeping isn't for me . Besides, I didn't go for Rapid Deployment stuff when I was serving even though I thought of it. And those are the only ones going from here now. Plus, with my past, you can't get into the troops because they want saints. I don't have a 'past' but they want people with traffic violations max. So even if I wanted to go, I wouldn't be accepted. Besides, I don't believe in peacekeeping. I think the whole ideology is twisted, even though they mean to do good. I just think differently, and I don't want to have anything to do with these guys. My friend was in Kosovo, and after hearing some stories and life in there, I wouldn't want to go. It's the whole thing and how it works. The guys serving there are sure good and they're doing their best but the system is twisted and it doesn't work.

If there's going to be some action, they can't react effectively and the whole command system and rules of engagement are straight from hell. And it's not just that, but everyone knows it. So I don't need special rules so that I can fire when I feel like it, but if I know I can't fire in any case except when the hell freezes over, it's bad.
And that said, what are they even doing there? Standing, looking tough so maybe they can stabilize the situation with their presence? To me, they are more like police and humanitarian type of troops. All in all, it's not for me and even if it was (I could go for one short rotation just for the heck of it), I couldn't get in.

 
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