05-06-2003 18:56									#91
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The UN sends troops without arms on the basis that if they aren't armed no one will see them as a threat and then aon't hurt them.

Then why send such troops to areas of the world without any peace to keep.

	05-06-2003 18:56									#92
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It was the heavy weapons and the authority to use them that confused me more than anything about that point.

What is your point? That they should have been as ineffective as the troops that were already send in?

	05-06-2003 18:58									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then why send such troops to areas of the world without any peace to keep.

I don't know, I was just giving to you my take on the UN.

If its a mission run by the EU, they may just allow their troops to shoot people

	05-06-2003 19:02									#94
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quote: It was the heavy weapons and the authority to use them that confused me more than anything about that point.

what about Gulf War 1? that was UN endorsed as well.

	05-06-2003 19:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I'm not saying that's the only reason or even the reason. I just predicted that it's probably something special about the region and voila! It would seem strange that they would take a risk of seeing men returing in bodybags just to protect some locals.

Why don't you explain how exactly we're getting an economic benefit by sending troops to Bunia?

We could just have well used the chaos in Congo as a pretext to send troops to Katanga to take over the diamond mines, which would also happen to be a lot less risky, but we didn't. Why is that?

	05-06-2003 19:30									#96
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If I were the EU, I would be suspicious of being roped into a French adventure to maintain her influence in the region. If it's good for the goose...

	05-06-2003 19:41									#97
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The UN sends troops without arms on the basis that if they aren't armed no one will see them as a threat and then aon't hurt them.

Sending a photography of soldiers could not do ?

	05-06-2003 19:43									#98
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Only if the opposition were likley to be scared by "white mans majic"

	05-06-2003 19:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If I were the EU, I would be suspicious of being roped into a French adventure to maintain her influence in the region. If it's good for the goose...

Fortunately, as you are not the EU, you are not suspicious.

	05-06-2003 19:51									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If I were the EU, I would be suspicious of being roped into a French adventure to maintain her influence in the region. If it's good for the goose...

I think the other participating countries have some share of the loot (unlike British companies in Iraq ) France doesn't seem too eager to pay full price to maintain its influence in the region, so I suppose it is going to share the costs AND the returning influence.

Besides, the EU in general has more to win of a stable DRC under influence, rather than a hellhole that could still continue to spark conflict between neighbouring and involved African countries (Uganda, Rwanda and Zimbabwe IIRC)

BTW, small question : what's the end of "If it's good for the goose..."

	05-06-2003 19:52									#101
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That's just the thing. France doesn't want to bear the full burden of maintaining her interests in the region. France's appetite for influence everywhere is extremely high right now. So fellow EU members ought to beware.

	05-06-2003 19:54									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor BTW, small question : what's the end of "If it's good for the goose..."

, it's good for the gander.

	05-06-2003 19:55									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That's why I suggested three airmobile brigades to go on the offensive against the rebels.

I´m not sure we have three airmobile brigades

DanS

To the suspicions: there are some rumours flying around that some in the EU want this operation primarily for prestige (although I´m not sure what big prestige you can win there). I can just hope that these are really only rumours.

	05-06-2003 19:58									#104
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Re the "good for the goose", France has been clear that it is trying to create a power pole to offset American influence. Because of this, I doubt France will contribute to much that the US does anywhere from now on. It would rather see the US pay full price.

This is fine, of course. It's France's perogative. However, when France looks to share the burden among a group, it will always be colored (and should be colored) by this alternate pole that they are trying to create. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

	05-06-2003 19:59									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If I were the EU, I would be suspicious of being roped into a French adventure to maintain her influence in the region. If it's good for the goose...

France sphere in influence lies mostly in West Africa and their other former colonies, not the DRC. The US and Belgium used to have a far heavier influence over the country but the Belgiums squandered it when it was still called Zaire and the US just can't be arsed anymore AFAIK.

	05-06-2003 20:02									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re the "good for the goose", France has been clear that it is trying to create a power pole to offset American influence. Because of this, I doubt France will contribute to much that the US does anywhere from now on. It would rather see the US pay full price. This is fine, of course. It's France's perogative. However, when France looks to share the burden among a group, it will always be colored (and should be colored) by this alternate pole that they are trying to create.

Sheesh Dan, what you're doing there is presenting full-blown speculation as facts.

	05-06-2003 20:03									#107
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and the US just can't be arsed anymore AFAIK

No, we really can't. Because the cold war is over. There is no adversary to worry about. Unless...

	05-06-2003 20:04									#108
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Sheesh Dan, what you're doing there is presenting full-blown speculation as facts.

Not at all. Creating a multipolar world is almost stated French policy. The only way to do that is to create another power pole and to minimize the existing hyper-puissance. Right?

Be careful to what ends you're working for!

	05-06-2003 20:05									#109
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro To the suspicions: there are some rumours flying around that some in the EU want this operation primarily for prestige (although I´m not sure what big prestige you can win there). I can just hope that these are really only rumours.

Are you saying that bringing democracy to the pygmies is less noble that bringing democracy to the Iraquis ? Or any democracy brought without air carrier is of no value for you ?

	05-06-2003 20:06									#110
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Dan:

And participating in that would be bad for other EU countries... how?

	05-06-2003 20:07									#111
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quote: Originally posted by DanS and the US just can't be arsed anymore AFAIK No, we really can't. Because the cold war is over. There is no adversary to worry about. Unless...

Have you mistakenly been reading the Washington Times instead of the Post?

	05-06-2003 20:09									#112
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Are you saying that bringing democracy to the pygmies is less noble that bringing democracy to the Iraquis ? Or any democracy brought without air carrier is of no value for you ?

Err?

This is a humanitarian operation (which I support). It is not the goal to bring democracy.

However, the fact that I support this mission doesn´t mean I can´t ask critical questions about it.

	05-06-2003 20:11									#113
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And participating in that would be bad for other EU countries... how?

It wouldn't be bad at all, if you subscribe to the French view of the optimal global power structure.

	05-06-2003 20:12									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Sheesh Dan, what you're doing there is presenting full-blown speculation as facts. Not at all. Creating a multipolar world is almost stated French policy. The only way to do that is to create another power pole and to minimize the existing hyper-puissance. Right?

Oh I see, we're invading Congo so that France can build a bullwark against the American Imperialism. Frankly, that sounds as ridiculous as the assertion you used to make that Somalia was a terrorists hotbed.

Get a grip on your paranoia.

	05-06-2003 20:14									#115
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and the US just can't be arsed anymore AFAIK.

When would we have cared enough to do anything about this in Africa to begin with?

Incidentally what did the Belgians do?

	05-06-2003 20:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It wouldn't be bad at all, if you subscribe to the French view of the optimal global power structure.

Where's the dotted line?

Hyper-puissance... I love that...

	05-06-2003 20:16									#117
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Oh I see, we're invading Congo so that France can build a bullwark against the American Imperialism. Frankly, that sounds as ridiculous as the assertion you used to make that Somalia was a terrorists hotbed.

No. I view Congo as influence trying to be bought cheaply.

Get a grip on your paranoia.

Damn near everything in a multipolar world is seen through the lense of the ultimate power struggle. That's just the way these things work. This is the planet that France is looking forward to.

	05-06-2003 20:18									#118
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DanS you paranoid.

	05-06-2003 20:19									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Colon I don't know how many troops or how much equipment 3 airmobile brigades is, but even if we plan on something as ambitious as stabilising the whole country I'm sceptical we could do anything outside of the medium-sized cities. Concepts such as central authorithy and infrastructure have disintigrated completely, even the rebel groups, Ruanda and Uganda have more nominal than real control over 'their' territories.

About 400 transport helos, 70 scout helos, 150 helo gunships, and 8,000 airmobile light infantry, plus the ability to carry things like mountain howitzers, HMG and AGL armed Humvees.

The nice thing about fully airmobile forces is that they can create temporary bases for themselves in a matter of hours, and they can get to an area faster than the *******s can get out. Any concentration of armed fighters, on any side, can be hunted down and exterminated until they get the message. These rebel groups have such a primitive concept of tactics that they'll **** themselves if caught in a vertical envelopment. The idea with airmobile forces not to dilute those forces all over the country, but to be able to rapidly deploy them and then extract them anywhere there's a fight for them to go to.

	05-06-2003 20:19									#120
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DanS is realistic. Otherwise, why did we care about all of these countries during the Cold War?