06-06-2003 05:26									#1
	Should we offer Iron to Vox? Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes or No.

Please discuss thoroughly first before voting.

	06-06-2003 05:35									#2
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I say no (but vote Banana at this time) as it will significantly hurt our relationship with GS, and as I see no benifit to us for doing so.

	06-06-2003 05:57									#3
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I say yes for all the reasons that we don't want GS to grown unhindered. I believe that we have the capacity, without hurting ourselves, to help Vox in the current situation.

GS will have RP as it's next target no matter what.

We are relatively close to them, we have a larger land mass than them and can grow to out produce them. They would want to attack us before we reached that point. We are slowly getting are cities up to a good production level after having REXed in order to secure land rather than provide for low waste/low corruption. That is changing slowly right now, but GS will do everthing to reverse that process whether we give Iron to Vox or not. They have publically stated that we are a threat to them in the long run! , We are!

So we give Iron to Vox in order to slow GS's roll towards us, if they have to concentrate on Vox, even with our help, it delays and wastes resouces that GS has on Vox/RP/GoW instead of just RP in the future. Lego has promised to continue it's AID to Vox and will even offer some to us in return for our taking the brunt of GS'es anger for our giving Vox Iron.

Not to metion that GoW is still in this, they want GS gone as bad as anyone else does. ND might even come onboard, I'm actually a little hopeful that that will happen. It would be a "Bobian" thing to do.

	06-06-2003 06:14									#4
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Yes. On the condition that we wait until Spanish troops arrive, if following the plan I outlined in other plan) If not following that plan, wait and see whether GS makes an aggressive move with their troops towards Voxian cities. If they do, give Vox Iron. If they stay put... there are too many variable to consider at this time, we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it.

EDIT: Oops, that was me who voted before discussing throughly. I apologize. I'm certainly open to some discussion.

	06-06-2003 07:25									#5
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I had a whole long post written out, but I erased it. There is no need to lecture here. This is a ridiculous move. We put ourselves in this situation by forgetting its just business and posting when emotions were high.

The other teams are already circling, distancing themselves, tempting us with offers, waiting to see the fireworks.

No iron. Back down and live fight another day when we can set the terms.

	06-06-2003 07:39									#6
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I am leaning toward SELLING them Iron at this point.

I believe that it is in our best long term interest to help Vox continue to fight GS.

I also believe that we are the next logical target of GS and that our lack of trading iron won't change things ... however, it is entirely possible that they will use the iron trade as an excuse to come and raid our harbor (Barcelona) with the excuse that they need to shut down the iron trade.

Therefore, we put ourselves at a greater risk if we do give iron.

We must weigh this risk. I would accept it if the reward is worthwhile. The question is, what reward would be worth the greater risk of invasion?

A tech? A few hundred gold?

Also, if we do this, Thud's proposal in the other thread is worth serious consideration.

--Togas

	06-06-2003 08:56									#7
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I said no, because I don't think we should give the poor wretches iron unless we may get something more out of it. We already have Arabia casting her greedy eyes towards us, with Egypt's mood soured, we're in for it.

However, as we are moving in anyway, I suggest that we only provide iron in exchange for a price.

I am afraid we've obligated ourselves to assist them, but we've already pledged military support (and I agree with Senor Thud's very fine plan of action), and giving away our iron for free is too much to ask. We must have a price.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	06-06-2003 11:37									#8
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I'm not sure what they could pay right now. I know that they would be willing to pay something in the future for it. We are also trying to get something from Lego for this too....

GoW has shown no signs of backing out and certainly neither has Lego. We should stand by our neighbors/allies in this war. It is for our own good that Vox uses our Iron to kill GS troops that would otherwise be heading for Spain.

If we don't give Iron to them, Vox may have no choice but to allow GS to sue for peace. And then what is GS going to do with all those units and Galley's that can easily reach our shores with the Light House they posess.

We can still expand and REX while helping out Vox. It makes no sense to send our troops over there to help (from GoW standopoint too) in a battle that we can in fact help ourselves by giving Vox Iron.

A vote against giving them Iron is tacit to voting against sending our units over there although we have commited to doing so. If Vox does not have iron, GS will make quick work of our units.

	06-06-2003 15:59									#9
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Although I don't like the idea of being in bad terms with GS, I'm afraid that giving iron to Vox is the only way to go.

GS is growing and if not a direct menace now, It will become one for sure. They will conquer all their continent the sooner or later and when the war is finished, they will focus on building again widening the gap between their team and the rest of us. In that case, the game victory would be for them.

Maybe we could gain some time with this war and try not to get too involved, growing and building as fast as possible and then becoming the first force (not only military) of the game. But that would make us the target of all the other teams...

In any case we will have to face GS one moment or another, and maybe this is our opportunity to change the tide.

Last edited by Fibrizzo on 06-06-2003 at 20:10

	06-06-2003 20:49									#10
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Egypt is a menace, but at present, for us, Arabia is going to be just as much one. When they have Ansars you can be sure that they'll be taking out one of the Bobian tribes.

However, you are right. We must assist the Persians in keeping the Egyptians quiet. Iron it is. But, now that Carthage is promising us goods for doing so, we can do this and still gain something other than having another stalemate abroad that will only end when the next iron link is lost.

Carthage should give us Theology, and they shouldn't ask for a guarantee that we don't build the Sistine Chapel. If we don't get the Sistine, we might as well not try for anything at all.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	06-06-2003 21:10									#11
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Please read my post in the Current Situation thread.

I think we need to start seeing this as an opportunity to gain a new friend, just like we eventually did with GoW. A friend who could help us race to Gunpowder, so that the Riders and Ansars of the north do not pose a threat.

No Iron. No more help for Vox.

The One Voice is dying out, let it go peacefully.

	06-06-2003 22:57									#12
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Come on! No Iron for our own blood!!!!

	07-06-2003 01:40									#13
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Thinking on France and UK attitude prior to the WWII (fearing to hurt Hitler and finally leting Germany to take the initiative), I'm for supporting Vox with that iron, but for a price.

I mostly agree with those who support helping Vox, and I am for increase our military quickly, as a priority, without stopping our REX, of course.

	07-06-2003 03:38									#14
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Considering it further, and reading over the transcripts of our discussions with Egyptian leaders...I am beginning to suspect that any assistance to Persia at all will only hurt us further.

Let someone else assist the Persians. Our reputation abroad is already damaged for some unknown reason, let us not make ourselves look like Bob's treacherous villains.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	07-06-2003 04:10									#15
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Iron + Plan = Tech + >=100g

But I vote Bnaana, because I'm divided on if we should sell them or not. We need pledged help from more than Lego for something this big.

	07-06-2003 04:42									#16
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Those of you opposed to giving Iron to Vox are saying:

Then: Vox is our ally.
Now: Vox is in trouble, they are no longer our ally.

We can't have it both ways gentlemen. The more we help Vox now, the more we help ourselves in the future. Can we really expect any other Nation to believe us if we promise to ally with them at a later date after we turn our backs on Vox now?

	07-06-2003 05:17									#17
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I say no (although I have NOT voted yet) for several reasons:

1) It will require losing one of our few and precious workers to have access NOW.

2) what if we need to sell/trade it to GoW when ND desides to have at them?

3) what if our current source moves?

I see no reason to help Vox when they have made several mistakes in this whole affair. We have an opertunity to become freinds with GS, let's not possibly spoil it.

E_T

	07-06-2003 05:23									#18
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GS doesn't want to be our friends, don't mistake their talk for meaning that. We WILL be their next target, no matter what. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind. Look at their statements and the facts. WE have many more land tiles than they do, if they don't do something fairly soon about us, we will be to strong for them do anything about.

	07-06-2003 05:57									#19
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DUH...the goal of the people who want to make friends with GS is to delay Total War, not stop it. We're everyone's target, because we are the biggest guys, we seem (only seem, I hope!) like fun guys who wouldn't notice Godzilla charging our ass, and we're much more nearby than Lego. The only Q is when we are their target.

It is foolish to hope that a Civ might at least want to piggyback off our success and ally with us, especially in the long run.

"Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best."

	07-06-2003 06:28									#20
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BigFree, Vox is not our ally!

We have good relations, have done some trades, and have an arranged trade in the works, which may or may not ever see completion. No one can blame us for not following through with it either.

	07-06-2003 14:35									#21
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dejon, we have told Vox that we would be there, we have told them that we will commit a certain amount of units toward the war against GS, we have told them that we would like to see the complete destruction of GS. We have various trades, past, present and likely furture (if we give them Iron) that will come to reprepresent our relationship with Vox.

This is our one chance to indirectly control the strength/growth of GS. Giving Vox Iron is not directly declaring war on GS; but if GS decalrs war on us, do you think that GS can support a war against a re-Ironed Vox and RP and GoW with the added gold that Lego is giving? The answer is no. If we pass this chance up and GS takes over Vox, we stand to face both GS and ND at a later date. I'd rather just have to worry about ND and keep GS out of it.

Where in this description does it not sound like we have allied with them?

The rest of the world would certainly 'blame' us for withdrawing support after we had so ardently stated that we would. For us to back out when things seem to be a little rough makes us look bad. I am one to keep my word, there is something to be said about that. Spain's policy should be the same; Spain's word should be gold.

	07-06-2003 15:32									#22
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BigFree, I totally agree

	07-06-2003 16:17									#23
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We have done business with them, not gotten into bed with then (yet). Big differences there.

E_T

	07-06-2003 18:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree dejon, we have told Vox that we would be there, we have told them that we will commit a certain amount of units toward the war against GS, we have told them that we would like to see the complete destruction of GS. We have various trades, past, present and likely furture (if we give them Iron) that will come to reprepresent our relationship with Vox. This is our one chance to indirectly control the strength/growth of GS. Giving Vox Iron is not directly declaring war on GS; but if GS decalrs war on us, do you think that GS can support a war against a re-Ironed Vox and RP and GoW with the added gold that Lego is giving? The answer is no. If we pass this chance up and GS takes over Vox, we stand to face both GS and ND at a later date. I'd rather just have to worry about ND and keep GS out of it. Where in this description does it not sound like we have allied with them? The rest of the world would certainly 'blame' us for withdrawing support after we had so ardently stated that we would. For us to back out when things seem to be a little rough makes us look bad. I am one to keep my word, there is something to be said about that. Spain's policy should be the same; Spain's word should be gold.

The majority of what you refer to is just your diplomatic discussions. Spain has not agreed to become a their ally, nor to support them in any fashion, other than the Engineering trade. I care little what your talks sound like. I only care about what has been agreed to by all of Spain, and ratified by both parties. The world can not take issue for us not doing something we never officially agreed to. Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member.

You have said before that you have the backing of the King in your talks, but it seems to me that FAM authority means you have the freedom to try to get what the team wants via diplomacy, not to decide what the team wants.

	07-06-2003 19:13									#25
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I have not yet voted, and I won't do so until we have talked more on IRC with leaders of GS.

I am slightly in favor of BigFrees plan in this last post above this one, but I also would like to see us becoming friends with GS.

There is no reason to choose for one option or the other, but if we choose for both, we have to make sure we keep it secret and both Vox keep it secret, especially to each other.

Aidun

	07-06-2003 20:34									#26
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Gentlemen... It seems to me we are forgetting our objectives into joining this war... Maybe part of this is my mistake, since I started the conversations as for aiding Vox and I believe I haven´t explained myself very much.
First point of joining the weakest side is for balancing things and getting this war to advance into a full war between Vox and GS, one that can keep ´em both busy destroying each other, loosing land improvements and sealing their fate in the process for a major defeat to other teams.
Second, was to obtain any profit we could from this war, though this is a second issue. A greater profit is already being achieved by cutting 2 teams from advance (wars are a MAJOR drawback to any economy, specially long, almost stalemated ones).
Third point is, GS has ALREADY stated that they have us as a likely next target. They have said that even if they conquer the whole ´´Estonia´´ they will not have ´´as much land as RP´´ in their own words. If this is not a demonstration of interest, then I do not know what is one. Besides, GS has shown no sign that they want to stablish good relations with us.It is to our greatest interest keeping both teams at war. And I must remind you folks war is all but decided in ´´Estonia´´ and that they have NO condition of starting an invasion on us prior to the full conquest of Vox and consequent rebuilding of their land. They may scream about invasions and threaten us and all around but they know they cannot start such a war against us and sucessfully invade us. And we can still build our navy and break any possible blockade agains t us. Also, imagine a combined effort by our navy, GoW´s navy and Vox´s navy against a possible blockade against us. Even though those 3 mentioned navies are very small it is to say the least unlikely GS´s navy is great enough so as to keep a blockade agaisnt our port against a combined effort of those 3 sides.And don´t forget that even 2 turns of iron could allow Vox to start building pikemen, and to upgrade many spearmen. Also, in an emergencial situation I believe game mechanics can allow us to use GoW´s ports if we build a road toward them (their capital).
So I say yes, let us do anything in hand to cause turmoil and caos at their land, while rexing and house cleaning things here.

	07-06-2003 21:17									#27
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It seems the biggest difference of opinion seems to center around whether we are GS's next target. With people saying we are a target regardless because of our proximity to them and selling iron to Vox is our best bet for keeping them occupied for the time being.

With the number of galleys they have and the Great Lighthouse, it seems to me that selling iron to Vox is the best way to see their troops on our shores the soonest.

	07-06-2003 23:16									#28
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If we speak, we are condemned.

If we do nothing, we are damned.

It seems either way, Senor Libre, we'll be fighting these monkeys. This is a most distressing case. We need to be concerned, as Marshal Dejon says, on settling the rest of our lands and on building our army. Nothing else should be in the way of that, because we know that someone is going to come looking for us in a matter of time. Will it be the Arabs with their Ansars, the Egyptians, or both in an alliance?

We stand at the void. Shall we merely look down into the blackness and pass on, or shall we totter and fall?

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	07-06-2003 23:39									#29
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If we give iron, we know we are the next target (they will declair war now to cause the blockaid) and will plan on invading us once they are done with Vox. So, by giving Vox iron, they will not get it because of the blockade.

If we do not give Vox Iron, they will die, but it will be long and bloody.

Is this the way things are? Admittadly, I have not looked at a map recently, so I don't know how many ports each of us have and if a blockaid will work or not (I do know that it has been threatened).

If we do give iron, there are two courses we must take. First, to assure that a blockaid doesn't occur, we can also give GS a lux (a gift - that way, if they declair war on us to effect the blockaid, they loose the lux). Second, we plan on an invasion from them, and beat them to the punch by sneak attacking them. If we capture any cities of theirs, we gift them to Vox or burn them down. Our objective is not to capture territory, but to eliminate the ability of the enemy to make war. We must act from now on that a state of war exists, even if it is not declaired.

A point of concern. We have two rivals to our north. They will be getting their UU's very shortly. How much do you trust them?

Ghost of GK

	08-06-2003 00:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by dejon The majority of what you refer to is just your diplomatic discussions. Spain has not agreed to become a their ally, nor to support them in any fashion, other than the Engineering trade. I care little what your talks sound like. I only care about what has been agreed to by all of Spain, and ratified by both parties. The world can not take issue for us not doing something we never officially agreed to. Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member. You have said before that you have the backing of the King in your talks, but it seems to me that FAM authority means you have the freedom to try to get what the team wants via diplomacy, not to decide what the team wants.

dejon, I take exception of your attitude towards me. You seem to be saying that I'm acting on my own accord without thought as to what the team wants. I suggest to you that I'm acting in a fashion that you do not agree with.

WE as a team agreed to the deal with Vox to help(ally) in the war with them against GS.

WE as a team agreed to send troops to Estonia as a part of this agreement.

WE as a team agreed that we should coordinate with both GoW and Vox as a means to the ends of bringing destruction to GS.

The accusations you have levied against me are ludicrous. You should be careful about making such statements. Although you may feel that what WE have decided as a team to do is not how you would do things there is no reason to think that I'm conducting my own talks with Vox.

quote: Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member.

dejon, WE have agreed to these issues, you may not have, but this team has. I am not some rogue FAM. I am acting upon the wishes of our King and our people. I am sad to see you feel this way. If you think we should change our whole stance on this issue, create a poll, see what the 'people' think. That is what I do.