11-06-2003 22:08									#271
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Explain what you mean by "productivity improvements" please.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:08									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian More production = more consumption? Isn't that bassackwards? Isn't it more Demand = more production? If you make a bunch of stuff that people don't want, they aren't going to buy it. -Arrian

I believe you are correct.

	11-06-2003 22:11									#273
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I didn't say "poor people." I said losers. If you find an equivalence there.... Being poor reflects current economic state. Being a loser reflects attitude. Someone who is both poor and a loser isn't going to become rich, no matter what you throw at him in subsidies. He'll just **** it up, or spend it all like a pimp, because the attitude towards work, money, management, etc. will lead to that result. Someone who is poor and has the right attitudes, has the opportunity, assuming there are no artificial barriers to opportunity (why I support civil rights, scholarships, improved education both inside and outside the traditional public school systems, etc.), has the chance to substantially improve his or her economic status.

Damn, this is a hard point to make for you. I'm considering equal persons living in two different environments. One has more opportunity than they other. One of those opportunities is to see success all around you, and to have friends who are successfull.

	11-06-2003 22:14									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Says the communist. Listen, several people with far greater knowledge of economics than I (my understanding is relatively basic, yes, limited to several college courses, watching what my family has done, and my own experience) have flat-out told you that you are sprouting garbage. Yet you insist that I don't have a clue. -Arrian

Take it up with Adam Smith if you don't believe that savings is determined by the interest rate and that interest rates increase with the demand for investment.

	11-06-2003 22:15									#275
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quote: Increases in productivity will result in higher consumption in the long run.

Explain that, then, in light of your agreement on the More Demand = More Production and not the other way 'round.

quote: I'm considering equal persons living in two different environments. One has more opportunity than they other. One of those opportunities is to see success all around you, and to have friends who are successful

Right - environment. Which, incidentally, is why MtG said he supports better education, civil rights, etc. We have to try and change the environment & the attitude in the poorest areas. Throwing a bit more money at them is likely to do diddly squat, though.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:21									#276
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quote: We have to try and change the environment & the attitude in the poorest areas. Throwing a bit more money at them is likely to do diddly squat, though.

Exactly!

	11-06-2003 22:22									#277
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Without government intereference, obviously increased demand for capital (investment) - or a shortage of capital - will drive up interest rates. But you are introducing a counterbalancing factor: your "wealth tax," which will **** everything up.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:25									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Explain that, then, in light of your agreement on the More Demand = More Production and not the other way 'round.

Scarcity is the mother of productivity improvements. The increase demand will also raise wages, thus creating more scarcity. When there is scarcity and increased demand only the producers who make productivity improvements will get the extra profits. When resources are plentiful productivity does not icrease as much.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Right - environment. Which, incidentally, is why MtG said he supports better education, civil rights, etc. We have to try and change the environment & the attitude in the poorest areas. Throwing a bit more money at them is likely to do diddly squat, though. -Arrian

It's not just throwing money at them. You are creating an economy where there are more jobs for them and they get to keep more of their earnings.

	11-06-2003 22:26									#279
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I am wondering if there is a communication barrier here... Symantics. I don't think what Kid is calling savings is actually savings, as I see investments as savings... I see what he is saying as wealth as a net worth.

I think he wants to tax people who hoard large amounts of cash (as cash) forcing them to spend it and/or invest it... Encourage them to invest. Yet, I also see that this already how it is.

	11-06-2003 22:27									#280
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quote: You are creating an economy where there are more jobs for them and they get to keep more of their earnings.

Losers don't want jobs.

	11-06-2003 22:27									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Without government intereference, obviously increased demand for capital (investment) - or a shortage of capital - will drive up interest rates. But you are introducing a counterbalancing factor: your "wealth tax," which will **** everything up. -Arrian

The market creates the optimal price. Why should I have to explain this to you market loving folks?

	11-06-2003 22:32									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think he wants to tax people who hoard large amounts of cash (as cash) forcing them to spend it and/or invest it... Encourage them to invest. Yet, I also see that this already how it is.

Again. Investment is dependent on demand for consumer goods and services. People will keep their money on the side lines or accept lower return instead of investing it in business if they don't believe that consumption is going to increase.

	11-06-2003 22:34									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Losers don't want jobs.

No one wants to work Japher. That's why we get paid for it. If there were people who wanted to work we would have to pay our employers. People want to improve their situation though. Even poor people.

	11-06-2003 22:36									#284
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So you want to tax people who keep their money on the side lines? You think that would spur the economy?

	11-06-2003 22:37									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Right now though money is invested in unproductive areas, because of the supply orientation of the economy. If you increase consumers incomes the scarcity in savings will promote productivity improvements.

Investments projects are ranked by decreasing return. When there is a scarcity in savings, the projects are realized according their rank, and those with the lower ranks (even if profitable) will not be done.

Scarcity in savings results necessarily in less projects, even as far as productivity is concerned.

	11-06-2003 22:37									#286
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quote: People want to improve their situation though. Even poor people.

Losers don't want to improve their situation at their own expense (time, money, any of it).

	11-06-2003 22:40									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Japher So you want to tax people who keep their money on the side lines? You think that would spur the economy?

I want to get people to invest in more productive ventures. Ventures that create jobs and all that good stuff. It's ridiculous to me to have all this wealth that isn't used productively. With all the wealth we have there should be very little unemloyment and underemployment in our country. Our GDP should be growing much faster.

	11-06-2003 22:42									#288
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That is why taxes were cut for those who more willing, knowledgable, and able to invest it in companies that higher people to give them money to spend which increases demand which increases production which increases GDP.

	11-06-2003 22:44									#289
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Investments projects are ranked by decreasing return. When there is a scarcity in savings, the projects are realized according their rank, and those with the lower ranks (even if profitable) will not be done. Scarcity in savings results necessarily in less projects, even sa far as productivity is concerned.

In the short run interest rates will bring in foreign investment. In the long run productivity improvements will lead to more production with less investment, or more return on investment if you will.

	11-06-2003 22:45									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Losers don't want jobs.

This just isn't true. In a society where there are decent jobs for everyone, almost everyone will work. We had full employment in New Zealand when I was growing up - everyone worked.

This thread seems to have gotten off topic. The question was, does Trickle-down work. The answer based on my experience is "no". Wealthy people get richer and the poor stay the same or do slightly worse.

Perhaps you have no objection to this, but that's a different issue.

	11-06-2003 22:46									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Losers don't want to improve their situation at their own expense (time, money, any of it).

Poor people don't have that option unless they want to live on welfare, and there are some of those, but I'm talking about working people. Only rich people get to improve their situation at other peoples expense.

	11-06-2003 22:49									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I want to get people to invest in more productive ventures. Ventures that create jobs and all that good stuff. It's ridiculous to me to have all this wealth that isn't used productively. With all the wealth we have there should be very little unemloyment and underemployment in our country. Our GDP should be growing much faster.

The Central Bureau for the Planification of Productive Ventures will decide (without appeal) what is productive and what is unproductive and socially adverse.

Simple.

	11-06-2003 22:49									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That is why taxes were cut for those who more willing, knowledgable, and able to invest it in companies that higher people to give them money to spend which increases demand which increases production which increases GDP.

Deficit tax cuts are really a tax increase because of the interest that we have to keep paying on the debt.

	11-06-2003 22:49									#294
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Agathon: That's greath that in New Zealand you had 100% employment, but here people who are only qualified to do the lowliest jobs won't do it, instead illegals or immigrants do those jobs. When I was growing up Hmongs generally held those jobs. Today, they don't... Do you want to tell me why?

At the same time many of the Mexicans who came in decided not to work any more than they had to, and once they got citizenship they would quit, and collect wellfare, and have a big part to celebrate it (I have been to several)...

Poor stay poor because they want to.

	11-06-2003 22:52									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This thread seems to have gotten off topic. The question was, does Trickle-down work. The answer based on my experience is "no". Wealthy people get richer and the poor stay the same or do slightly worse. Perhaps you have no objection to this, but that's a different issue.

It has already been established that trickle-down doesn't work. There isn't anything else to say about it.

	11-06-2003 22:52									#296
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quote: Deficit tax cuts are really a tax increase because of the interest that we have to keep paying on the debt.

I do agree with that.

	11-06-2003 22:54									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Poor stay poor because they want to.

This is one of atleast 3 absolutely ridiculous statements that I have seen come from the right in this thread. Are you guys assuming that people behave rationally? If not, where do you guys come up with these crazy statements.

	11-06-2003 22:55									#298
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quote: The Central Bureau for the Planification of Productive Ventures will decide (without appeal) what is productive and what is unproductive and socially adverse. Simple.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:59									#299
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Kid:

I do believe that programs set up to help people who are not financially well off are designed to keep them that way.

I also feel that ppl who are poor make very little attempt to change what is inherently keeping them poor: their attitudes and the management of themselves.

I also believe that if someone wanted a better job that they would do what it would take to get that job and not just whine about not having it.

Where do I get these ideas? Your in Fresno! I grew up there and I saw it everyday, and had to wade through some of it myself.

#1 Reason people are poor is because they are lazy, mainly due to low lack of morale and self-esteem

Lack of government programs is not the case, nor is it the fact that there are rich people in the world.

	11-06-2003 23:05									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Agathon: That's greath that in New Zealand you had 100% employment, but here people who are only qualified to do the lowliest jobs won't do it, instead illegals or immigrants do those jobs. When I was growing up Hmongs generally held those jobs. Today, they don't... Do you want to tell me why?

We didn't have any immigrants. What we did have was well paid jobs for working class people. Now it's all McJobs with little pay and high stress and people of course don't like doing them.

What's a Hmong?