11-06-2003 21:11									#241
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quote: I am very thankful that you're not running the show.

As are we all, Arrian . I've been having this argument with him for months... that you need savings to invest, but he just can't understand that... if you can do it, you are a better man than I .

	11-06-2003 21:13									#242
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Considering the US balance of foreign trade, one could believe that consuming more than 100% of your production has already been achieved.

That maybe so. The trade balance results in borrowing. The imbalance is the result of the wealth in the US. Consuption always spurs investment though so there is always enough investment. It's the invisible hand

	11-06-2003 21:13									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Man, the companies are shipping out all the jobs they can now. There would be absolutely no increase because of the a wealth tax.

Incorrect. Companies are shipping out jobs where doing so gives them a likely net advantage. An asset tax encourages that even further.

quote: Here's the way it works. Cutting working peoples taxes increases their disposable inome. More income means economic growth. Right?

No, the way it works is that more income may contribute to economic growth, or it may just contribute to inflation if income increases faster than production. Unless you like greater imports and ever larger trade deficits. Since you're taxing capital formation, production will not grow in your system beyond existing facilities (maybe) increasing output up to present capacity.

	11-06-2003 21:15									#244
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Debt driven investment is insane. (Oh, and try to raise significant amounts of capital that way without equity, )

It's called the financial system. It's how you and I get a return for our savings. Because someone borrows it to invest.

	11-06-2003 21:19									#245
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The crawdad principle. (If you catch one crawdad and put it in a bucket, it'll crawl out, but if you put two in a bucket, as soon as one's about to crawl out, the other one will grab it's tail. A large percentage of people who grow up in a "poor" environment fit that mold precisely - they rationalize excuses for their failures, and actively undermine anyone who tries to do better. However, you're talking about a sociological defect, not a lack of economic opportunity. Tax policy won't help dumbasses - they'll just spend anything extra on lotto tickets, Marlboros or Kools instead of generics, and useless crap. People have to decide whether they want to subscribe to that sort of defeatist mentality or not.

Creating more opportunity for the poor will change things. Then they will see success as obtainable.

	11-06-2003 21:20									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That maybe so. The trade balance results in borrowing. The imbalance is the result of the wealth in the US. Consuption always spurs investment though so there is always enough investment. It's the invisible hand

So your statement about famine is wrong, or we move from famine to wealth when we broke the 100% limit ?

	11-06-2003 21:22									#247
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat No, the way it works is that more income may contribute to economic growth, or it may just contribute to inflation if income increases faster than production. Unless you like greater imports and ever larger trade deficits. Since you're taxing capital formation, production will not grow in your system beyond existing facilities (maybe) increasing output up to present capacity.

There would be a short period of inflation and increased trade deficit. After the adjustment everything will be smooth.

	11-06-2003 21:23									#248
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT So your statement about famine is wrong, or we move from famine to wealth when we broke the 100% limit ?

The difference is that the US has no problem getting the necessary investment.

	11-06-2003 21:25									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I am very thankful that you're not running the show. As are we all, Arrian . I've been having this argument with him for months... that you need savings to invest, but he just can't understand that... if you can do it, you are a better man than I .

You don't know what the financial system is either

	11-06-2003 21:25									#250
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A Wealth tax would would be counter productive. Besides, the gov. doesn't need any more money.

	11-06-2003 21:28									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The difference is that the US has no problem getting the necessary investment.

I understand, your whole system can only work in the US. It is a good news for all other countries!

	11-06-2003 21:28									#252
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quote: You don't know what the financial system is either

Seeing how everyone is against you, perhaps you are the one who doesn't know what the financial system is?

	11-06-2003 21:32									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's called the financial system. It's how you and I get a return for our savings. Because someone borrows it to invest.

If they do it without adequate equity, they're playing Polish roulette. Project finance in the US typically requires 20-30 percent equity, SEC margin caps are there for a reason, etc. Overleveraging is unsound in the extreme - remember the good ol' collapse of the junk bond bubble? In your system, since you tax assets and encourage capital flight, you would force overleveraging, or the always available alternative of investing elsewhere.

	11-06-2003 21:35									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Creating more opportunity for the poor will change things. Then they will see success as obtainable.

Losers will always find a way to lose. People who don't see success as attainable now aren't going to see it because they have some extra spending money every two weeks.

You choose whether you see success as attainable or not, just as you choose what role models you'll follow, if any, etc.

	11-06-2003 21:35									#255
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I understand, your whole system can only work in the US. It is a good news for all other countries!

Hey, how do you like Auerstadt? I might be looking for someplace to move my business.

	11-06-2003 21:41									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you mean if the savings rate fell? I don't think a falling savings rate is that bad for this economy. The reason is that interest rates are so low right now. The savings rate wouldn't fall as much as you're thinking because interest rates would go up.

You know that in a closed economy, savings equal investments?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That maybe so. The trade balance results in borrowing. The imbalance is the result of the wealth in the US. Consuption always spurs investment though so there is always enough investment. It's the invisible hand

The imbalance has nothing to do with "wealth" in the US. What wealth?

Consumption spurs investment if it is required to expand capacity. So you get increased nominal demand. care to explain why you equal that with increased real output, especially with a falling savings rate?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The difference is that the US has no problem getting the necessary investment.

Neither had Britain during their late Thatcher bubble. You're back from Marxist to Wallstreet econ clown.

	11-06-2003 21:45									#257
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quote: Debt driven investment is insane. (Oh, and try to raise significant amounts of capital that way without equity It's called the financial system. It's how you and I get a return for our savings. Because someone borrows it to invest.

The "financial system" eh? And what, pray tell, does the financial system us to lend out money? PEOPLE'S SAVINGS!!! But your system emphatically discourages savings, particularly large amounts of money.

And you accuse others of not knowing how things work?



-Arrian

	11-06-2003 21:45									#258
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Hey, how do you like Auerstadt? I might be looking for someplace to move my business.

You want to move to Auerstaedt?

	11-06-2003 21:48									#259
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Hey, if Kid ever takes over, Zambia wouldn't look so bad.

Then again, maybe I can buy a reserve commission in the mountain navy?

	11-06-2003 21:49									#260
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If Kid took over, I'd join those crazy Canadian capitalist pigs!

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 21:52									#261
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Losers will always find a way to lose. People who don't see success as attainable now aren't going to see it because they have some extra spending money every two weeks. You choose whether you see success as attainable or not, just as you choose what role models you'll follow, if any, etc.

At one point you are acknowledging the different problems that poor and rich people face, and at the next point you go back to saying that rich people are superior to poor people.

	11-06-2003 21:52									#262
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Same here... Ontario is fairly nice .

	11-06-2003 21:58									#263
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You know that in a closed economy, savings equal investments? 3

In the long run yes. In the long run there are productivity improvements. A wealth tax would encourage productivity improvements because of the scarcity of resources and the higher prices.

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Consumption spurs investment if it is required to expand capacity. So you get increased nominal demand. care to explain why you equal that with increased real output, especially with a falling savings rate?

Savings increases because of higher interest rates. Then savings will equal investment. Increases in productivity will result in higher consumption in the long run.

	11-06-2003 22:00									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The "financial system" eh? And what, pray tell, does the financial system us to lend out money? PEOPLE'S SAVINGS!!! But your system emphatically discourages savings, particularly large amounts of money. And you accuse others of not knowing how things work? -Arrian

No offense Arian, but you don't know how the economy works. Interest rates determine the level of savings. Interest rates would be higher.

	11-06-2003 22:02									#265
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Why are you so caught up on a wealth tax? To incourage investing to incourage growth? Yet, investments are savings! If you just mean savings as in a bank account, than not to fear those ppl are already getting screwed by a low interest that doesn't even amount to infaltion. Also, the bank lends this money out. Pretty much, by not investing you are already losing money, so I don't see why you need to tax it too! The government already takes money everytime it changes hands, why more?

	11-06-2003 22:02									#266
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quote: Savings increases because of higher interest rates. Then savings will equal investment. Increases in productivity will result in higher consumption in the long run.

More production = more consumption? Isn't that bassackwards? Isn't it more Demand = more production? If you make a bunch of stuff that people don't want, they aren't going to buy it.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:02									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious At one point you are acknowledging the different problems that poor and rich people face, and at the next point you go back to saying that rich people are superior to poor people.

I didn't say "poor people." I said losers. If you find an equivalence there....

Being poor reflects current economic state. Being a loser reflects attitude. Someone who is both poor and a loser isn't going to become rich, no matter what you throw at him in subsidies. He'll just **** it up, or spend it all like a pimp, because the attitude towards work, money, management, etc. will lead to that result.

Someone who is poor and has the right attitudes, has the opportunity, assuming there are no artificial barriers to opportunity (why I support civil rights, scholarships, improved education both inside and outside the traditional public school systems, etc.), has the chance to substantially improve his or her economic status.

	11-06-2003 22:04									#268
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then again, maybe I can buy a reserve commission in the mountain navy?

Before you move to Auerstaedt... hey, we could use a native english speaker commissioned mountain navy guy, for the Sound of Music Tours....

	11-06-2003 22:06									#269
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quote: No offense Arian, but you don't know how the economy works. Interest rates determine the level of savings. Interest rates would be higher.

Says the communist. Listen, several people with far greater knowledge of economics than I (my understanding is relatively basic, yes, limited to several college courses, watching what my family has done, and my own experience) have flat-out told you that you are sprouting garbage. Yet you insist that I don't have a clue.



-Arrian

	11-06-2003 22:07									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why are you so caught up on a wealth tax? To incourage investing to incourage growth? Yet, investments are savings! If you just mean savings as in a bank account, than not to fear those ppl are already getting screwed by a low interest that doesn't even amount to infaltion. Also, the bank lends this money out. Pretty much, by not investing you are already losing money, so I don't see why you need to tax it too! The government already takes money everytime it changes hands, why more?

Right now though money is invested in unproductive areas, because of the supply orientation of the economy. If you increase consumers incomes the scarcity in savings will promote productivity improvements.