11-06-2003 19:29									#211
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Capital doesn't follow a growing economy, capital follows wherever the opportunity / risk ratio is most favorable. If you tax wealth accumulation above a certain point, you can guarantee capital flight.

Capital follows economic growth. Boy we disagree on a lot of simple stuff.

	11-06-2003 19:35									#212
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You are a bizarre mixture of Karl Marx and the average Wallstreet economist. If you have been exposed to the most minimalistic understanding of economics, you have to know that you're spouting total bollocks.

I'm really a communist, but I'm one who wants to make capitalism work as well as it can.

I guess I'm sort of invisioning a world where other nations have a similar wealth tax and the rich can't hide. Still though, I don't think capital is that scarce and we would have enough to cover our investments. To tell you the truth I'm not sure if we could cover the taxes, but I think we might.

	11-06-2003 19:50									#213
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: quote: Originally posted by Arrian This thread once again illustrates (as prior threads have done) that you believe that all rich people got their money from their mummies 'n daddies and never work a day in their lives, living in luxury while the working class slaves away. quote: Originally posted by Kidiculous I haven't made that assumption. quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui 3 or 4? What are you nuts? Just about every family fortune was at one time earned by a person just like Carnegie. Very few families were rich before they got here. quote: Originally posted by Kidiculous See you're out of touch. I don't know any actual people who are anything like that, and probably no one I know does either.

I presented you with your faulty assumption, which you rejected, and then not 1 page later you blatantly fell back on that very assumption.

As Imran later pointed out, many people on this site can tell personal stories of "making it" despite growing up poor. Or they can tell you such a story about a close relative (like my grandfather, who I've told you about in a different thread). In other words - IT CAN AND DOES HAPPEN. But it requires a few things:

-hard work
-goals
-determination

The last two are pretty key: determination means that even if the odds seem stacked against you, you try anyway, and don't just say "oh, I can't. It's not fair!"

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 19:59									#214
	Support Apolyton

That's just not true. You said that my assumption was that no poor people become rich. The discourse with Imran was in another context. No assumption was made there. I was simply pointing out that any 'rags to riches' people who were to pay more in wealth tax in a wealth tax system than they so in the current system whould be a very, very small percentage. Remember that there wouldn't be any other taxes. So people in this category would never pay sales tax, income tax or any other tax. More people would be getting wealthy in the new system. Only when these people bacame filthy rich would they end up paying more tax.

	11-06-2003 20:08									#215
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Arrian -hard work -goals -determination The last two are pretty key: determination means that even if the odds seem stacked against you, you try anyway, and don't just say "oh, I can't. It's not fair!" -Arrian

Luck and opportunity are ther keys my friend. The three charactaristics of the up and comer that you gave are pretty common with most people. The fact is that only an insignificant few become rich, and don't say that I'm saying that people can't improve their financial situation by saving money, because I'm not saying that.

	11-06-2003 20:18									#216
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Luck and opportunity play their part, yes. Then again, there is a great quote that says something along the lines of "luck is just when opportunity and preparedness meet."

And besides, I'm not just talking about the filthy rich. I'm also talking about people who go from poor to middle class (my grandfather, for example). While "rags to riches" may be a very small amount of people, the average person does have the opportunity to better their financial situation. Many do not, either due to poor upbringing, poor education, lack of motivation, and things of that nature. Someone growing up in a poor, high-crime area and attending a terrible public school clearly has a disadvantage. But that doesn't mean they cannot make it. It does mean we as a society should work to remove those disadvantages (better education, lower crime, etc).

Now, as for your "wealth tax" the major problem is that a lot (if not most) of the wealth is tied up in assets. Land, buildings, stock, etc. If my family were subjected to a "wealth tax" it would almost surely force my parents to sell their home, because that's where a substantial amount (half or more) of their wealth is.

Oh, and would you vary the wealth tax cutoff (who is wealth and who is not) by region, taking into account variations in property value and cost of living?

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 20:21									#217
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Still though, I don't think capital is that scarce and we would have enough to cover our investments. To tell you the truth I'm not sure if we could cover the taxes, but I think we might.

The US savings rate is short 5 % of GDP - NOW. The net investement rate sucks. Further discouraging savings is madness - a madness you, oddly enough, share with a former Randite, Alan Greenspan.

	11-06-2003 20:23									#218
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The Kidicious Wealth Tax Theory has been enforced in France in 1981.

The purpose was to tax the net assets of everybody fiscally considered living in France.

- Franchise : 750 000€
- Exemption : Assets necessary for your job, artworks, antics (older than 100 years)
- Rate : from 0.55% to 1.8% (above €15 Millions)
- Number of payers : 150 000
- End result: Cost of collection almost equalling the amount collected, AND move to Switzerland, Belgium and GB of a significant number of wealthy people. Finally, the middle class owning their home in Paris, often worth more than 750000€ is the victim of this tax which was named : Tax on the Great Wealth, then, in a more politically correct way, Tax of Solidarity on the Wealth.

This was created by the left, but the right, when in power, never dare to suppress it. In fact, nobody bother any longer, since all those concerned are now organized.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 11-06-2003 at 20:30

	11-06-2003 20:26									#219
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thank you for that contribution, DAVOUT.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 20:30									#220
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Luck and opportunity play their part, yes. Then again, there is a great quote that says something along the lines of "luck is just when opportunity and preparedness meet." And besides, I'm not just talking about the filthy rich. I'm also talking about people who go from poor to middle class (my grandfather, for example). While "rags to riches" may be a very small amount of people, the average person does have the opportunity to better their financial situation. Many do not, either due to poor upbringing, poor education, lack of motivation, and things of that nature. Someone growing up in a poor, high-crime area and attending a terrible public school clearly has a disadvantage. But that doesn't mean they cannot make it. It does mean we as a society should work to remove those disadvantages (better education, lower crime, etc).

I don't want to say that a poor person can't improve their situation either. If a middle class person were to become temporarily poor I'm sure that 9-10 times they could improve their sitiuation, but it's different for a person that grows up in that environment. If you grow up in that environment you probably won't be able to set your goals, because poor people see so much failure around them. Perceptions are very powerfull.

I used to teach poor kids, so I've seen it first hand.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Now, as for your "wealth tax" the major problem is that a lot (if not most) of the wealth is tied up in assets. Land, buildings, stock, etc. If my family were subjected to a "wealth tax" it would almost surely force my parents to sell their home, because that's where a substantial amount (half or more) of their wealth is.

Few common folks who own their own homes would pay more tax overall. Some people may choose to buy smaller houses though. A wealth tax will increase productivity. Land will be expensive to hold which will encourage productivity improvements. Speculation would decrease.

	11-06-2003 20:37									#221
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The US savings rate is short 5 % of GDP - NOW. The net investement rate sucks. Further discouraging savings is madness - a madness you, oddly enough, share with a former Randite, Alan Greenspan.

Investment is dependent on consumption, not savings.

	11-06-2003 20:40									#222
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: If you grow up in that environment you probably won't be able to set your goals, because poor people see so much failure around them. Perceptions are very powerfull. I used to teach poor kids, so I've seen it first hand.

And I have friends who have taught poor kids, which is why I mentioned stuff like that. I know that's a huge problem - seeing failure & poverty everywhere they look, and therefore giving up. I don't really see how a wealth tax will help that, though.

quote: A wealth tax will increase productivity. Land will be expensive to hold which will encourage productivity improvements

How? All I see is lots of people having to liquidate their assets to pay the tax - and having a helluva time selling because everyone with the money to buy those assets will be taxed up the whaazoo as well. And, as Roland (Hersh) pointed out, your system will discourage savings - at least by anyone anywhere near the tax threshold. And for those that might be inclined to go a create something like Microsoft or Dell or whatever, they will probably just say "screw it" and either move to another country or decide to just work their 9 to 5 and get by like the rest of the righteous proletariate.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 20:40									#223
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT The Kidicious Wealth Tax Theory has been enforced in France in 1981. The purpose was to tax the net assets of everybody fiscally considered living in France. - Franchise : 750 000€ - Exemption : Assets necessary for your job, artworks, antics (older than 100 years) - Rate : from 0.55% to 1.8% (above €15 Millions) - Number of payers : 150 000 - End result: Cost of collection almost equalling the amount collected, AND move to Switzerland, Belgium and GB of a significant number of wealthy people. Finally, the middle class owning their home in Paris, often worth more than 750000€ is the victim of this tax which was named : Tax on the Great Wealth, then, in a more politically correct way, Tax of Solidarity on the Wealth. This was created by the left, but the right, when in power, never dare to suppress it. In fact, nobody bother any longer, since all those concerned are now organized.

The US never has had as much problem with capital flight as other countries though. And maybe with the US lead, the rest of the world would feel more confident of creating their own wealth tax.

	11-06-2003 20:41									#224
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Investment is dependent on consumption, not savings.

Excuse me? Care to tell me how someone with no savings can invest in something?

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 20:42									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Investment is dependent on consumption, not savings.

No really. When 100 % of output is consumed, what do you invest? The outcome of your digestive processes?

	11-06-2003 20:49									#226
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capital follows economic growth. Boy we disagree on a lot of simple stuff.

If you tax capital itself (rather than earnings on capital) above a certain point, then the solution for the taxpayer is simple - don't have capital in that market above that point. Economic growth would follow capital in this case - it would go elsewhere.

	11-06-2003 20:51									#227
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Arrian And I have friends who have taught poor kids, which is why I mentioned stuff like that. I know that's a huge problem - seeing failure & poverty everywhere they look, and therefore giving up. I don't really see how a wealth tax will help that, though.

Poor people do pay taxes. So eliminating those taxes would be direct help. It would stimulate the economy, because the middle class would have more money to spend and invest. That will create more jobs.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian How? All I see is lots of people having to liquidate their assets to pay the tax - and having a helluva time selling because everyone with the money to buy those assets will be taxed up the whaazoo as well. And, as Roland (Hersh) pointed out, your system will discourage savings - at least by anyone anywhere near the tax threshold. -Arrian

The rational investor will demand a return on his investment. Why hold land that is going to be taxed that isn't producing anything?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian And for those that might be inclined to go a create something like Microsoft or Dell or whatever, they will probably just say "screw it" and either move to another country or decide to just work their 9 to 5 and get by like the rest of the righteous proletariate.

Man, the companies are shipping out all the jobs they can now. There would be absolutely no increase because of the a wealth tax.

Here's the way it works. Cutting working peoples taxes increases their disposable inome. More income means economic growth. Right?

	11-06-2003 20:55									#228
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler No really. When 100 % of output is consumed, what do you invest? The outcome of your digestive processes?

The only places where 100% is consumed is in famine economies, where stavation is the significant factor. It's not possible to consume 100% in US.

	11-06-2003 20:57									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you tax capital itself (rather than earnings on capital) above a certain point, then the solution for the taxpayer is simple - don't have capital in that market above that point. Economic growth would follow capital in this case - it would go elsewhere.

It depends on the return. Since the economy would be growing there would be higher return.

	11-06-2003 20:58									#230
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's not the issue. If it falls to say 10 % of GDP, you suffer a shrinking capital stock. Think that's a good idea?

	11-06-2003 20:58									#231
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Excuse me? Care to tell me how someone with no savings can invest in something? -Arrian

Borrow

	11-06-2003 20:59									#232
	Get a bigger avatar today!

From who?

	11-06-2003 21:01									#233
	Tired of ads?

Not necessarily, Kid. More income may mean more consumption, but a shortage of capital can stymie growth. Look, if suddenly poorer people had more cash on had and thus were able to consume more, that would be a positive. But economic growth - new growth, as opposed to increases in sales for established industries - is up a creek w/o a paddle if there isn't a bunch of capital around to use to start up new companies.

As for the "companies shipping out all the jobs" part, that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the people who innovate - the people who come up with the ideas and then put them into action, not the average working stiff. Those people will bail, or say "screw it." You are discouraging the country's best 'n brightest.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 21:02									#234
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler That's not the issue. If it falls to say 10 % of GDP, you suffer a shrinking capital stock. Think that's a good idea?

Do you mean if the savings rate fell? I don't think a falling savings rate is that bad for this economy. The reason is that interest rates are so low right now. The savings rate wouldn't fall as much as you're thinking because interest rates would go up.

	11-06-2003 21:03									#235
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The only places where 100% is consumed is in famine economies, where stavation is the significant factor. It's not possible to consume 100% in US.

Considering the US balance of foreign trade, one could believe that consuming more than 100% of your production has already been achieved.

	11-06-2003 21:04									#236
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Without savings you cannot invest. Without investment, you cannot start new companies. The economy stagnates, and then collapses.

I am very thankful that you're not running the show.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 21:06									#237
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't want to say that a poor person can't improve their situation either. If a middle class person were to become temporarily poor I'm sure that 9-10 times they could improve their sitiuation, but it's different for a person that grows up in that environment. If you grow up in that environment you probably won't be able to set your goals, because poor people see so much failure around them. Perceptions are very powerfull.

The crawdad principle. (If you catch one crawdad and put it in a bucket, it'll crawl out, but if you put two in a bucket, as soon as one's about to crawl out, the other one will grab it's tail.

A large percentage of people who grow up in a "poor" environment fit that mold precisely - they rationalize excuses for their failures, and actively undermine anyone who tries to do better. However, you're talking about a sociological defect, not a lack of economic opportunity. Tax policy won't help dumbasses - they'll just spend anything extra on lotto tickets, Marlboros or Kools instead of generics, and useless crap. People have to decide whether they want to subscribe to that sort of defeatist mentality or not.

quote: I used to teach poor kids, so I've seen it first hand.

It's not what you've seen, it's what you've shown that counts. Talk to Charles Bolden for one example.

quote: Few common folks who own their own homes would pay more tax overall. Some people may choose to buy smaller houses though.

You mean after they're forced to sell to pay your tax? (and since any house over a certain limit is subject to the tax, the value of those houses will depress)

quote: A wealth tax will increase productivity. Land will be expensive to hold which will encourage productivity improvements. Speculation would decrease.

How so? Since you're taxing "wealth" i.e. assets, productivity improvements simply add to the tax burden - and if you don't have a market for it, turning every square inch of the US into shopping malls or factory space is silly. No need for speculation to decrease, all you do is break up the holdings into chucks below the floor of your tax, and create 40-50 LLC's or what have you to obscure ownership.

	11-06-2003 21:07									#238
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Not necessarily, Kid. More income may mean more consumption, but a shortage of capital can stymie growth. Look, if suddenly poorer people had more cash on had and thus were able to consume more, that would be a positive. But economic growth - new growth, as opposed to increases in sales for established industries - is up a creek w/o a paddle if there isn't a bunch of capital around to use to start up new companies.

People will weigh the wealth tax with the higher profits and interests, the market will establish the prices that will clear the production and meet the demand.

	11-06-2003 21:08									#239
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Borrow

Debt driven investment is insane. (Oh, and try to raise significant amounts of capital that way without equity, )

	11-06-2003 21:09									#240
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: People will weigh the wealth tax with the higher profits and interests, the market will establish the prices that will clear the production and meet the demand.

What? Sorry, but I have no idea what you're saying here.

-Arrian