11-06-2003 06:09									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I've heard of circular logic, but this may be even beyond that .

Way beyond!

What I think Kidicious may be aluding to is a "value added" tax??

	11-06-2003 06:10									#182
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quote: You just tax all wealth at the same rate. People who inherit wealth will pay the most tax. The poor will pay none.

Um... that's a contradiction right there. The poor have NO wealth at all? If you think so, what planet are you living on. If not, then why aren't they being taxed?

And why do people who inherit wealth taxed more than people who have the same amount of wealth, but is self-made, if all wealth is taxed at the same rate?

	11-06-2003 06:11									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So rich people, which create wealth for themselves, are getting a benefit, which is wealth, which makes them rich? And this proves the system is unfair? Or, rather, since you believe that wealth is a benefit, take a (altered) quote of yours: the wealthy simply get more wealth (benefits) or they wouldn't be wealthy. I've heard of circular logic, but this may be even beyond that .

Well there you go. How can we have a decent conversation when you guys are insisting that wealth is not a benefit? What I'm I suppose to say?

	11-06-2003 06:14									#184
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So, wait, you are saying that the rich get more benefits, and thus the system is unfair. That benefit is WEALTH? So the rich make more wealth (which you must in order to be rich) and so the system is unfair?

How is that an argument?

The system benefits the wealthy more because it allows them to create wealth, which is a benefit? What?!

If I make more money than you, the system unfairly benefits me, because the wealth that I've made is benefit? So how can the system give me unfair benefits to be rich, if to be rich, I must have the benefit?

	11-06-2003 06:15									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And why do people who inherit wealth taxed more than people who have the same amount of wealth, but is self-made, if all wealth is taxed at the same rate?

People who come from wealthy families have wealth, problem? The little guy who works hard, has a high income, but not as much wealth. So his tax is lower. People living day to day without savings will pay none.

	11-06-2003 06:20									#186
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quote: People who come from wealthy families have wealth, problem? The little guy who works hard, has a high income, but not as much wealth. So his tax is lower. People living day to day without savings will pay none.

What if the guy who works hard and creates a corporate empire (like Carnegie) has MORE Wealth than the guy that inherited it? Why is the inherited person get taxed at a higher rate?

People who don't have savings (which is an absurdly small portion of the population, just about everyone has some savings) still have wealth in the things they own.

	11-06-2003 06:21									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So, wait, you are saying that the rich get more benefits, and thus the system is unfair. That benefit is WEALTH? So the rich make more wealth and so the system is unfair? How is that an argument? The system benefits the wealthy more because it allows them to create wealth, which is a benefit? What?!

I'll ignore that you keep saying that they are 'creating' wealth so I can say this. The argument is whether the wealthy should pay higher taxes. They recieve higher benefits (as you have stated) so they should have to pay the higher taxes.

	11-06-2003 06:23									#188
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Kidicious, There are so many problems with your theory that I really cannot begin to list them. Let me simply say that the aquisition and use of wealth is what enables a capitalist system. It is in essence a means of production.

	11-06-2003 06:26									#189
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quote: The argument is whether the wealthy should pay higher taxes. They recieve higher benefits (as you have stated) so they should have to pay the higher taxes.

So, what you are saying is that they have higher wealth, so they should be taxed more?

Where does 'benefits' come into this? You keep saying wealth is a benefit, and since the system benefits the rich more, they should pay more. But, in order to be rich, you have to make more of the benefit.... so how is the system benefiting them? They are allowing them to make the money? So why do they have to pay more, then, because doesn't the system allow everyone to make money?

	11-06-2003 06:28									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: People who come from wealthy families have wealth, problem? The little guy who works hard, has a high income, but not as much wealth. So his tax is lower. People living day to day without savings will pay none. What if the guy who works hard and creates a corporate empire (like Carnegie) has MORE Wealth than the guy that inherited it? Why is the inherited person get taxed at a higher rate?

Are you talking about 3 or 4 individuals that come close to representing an agent like Carnegie?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui People who don't have savings (which is an absurdly small portion of the population, just about everyone has some savings) still have wealth in the things they own.

Man, you are way out of touch with the reality that millions of Americans live.

	11-06-2003 06:28									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'll ignore that you keep saying that they are 'creating' wealth so I can say this. The argument is whether the wealthy should pay higher taxes. They recieve higher benefits (as you have stated) so they should have to pay the higher taxes.

Kidicious, The so called "benefit" is in no way related to governmental expenditure. The taxing of wealth is in no way related to its nature (actually, the opposite is true!). What you are advocating is pure and simple redistribution of wealth. Under this type of system, it can be shown, the expansion of an economy slows drastically. Once this happens, it becomes harder to acquire and pass on wealth. Then your tax base is gone. etc...

	11-06-2003 06:31									#192
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quote: Are you talking about 3 or 4 individuals that come close to representing an agent like Carnegie?

3 or 4? What are you nuts? Just about every family fortune was at one time earned by a person just like Carnegie. Very few families were rich before they got here.

quote: Man, you are way out of touch with the reality that millions of Americans live.

I'd wager that less than 5% of the US population has absolutely no savings at all.

	11-06-2003 06:32									#193
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Kidicious, The so called "benefit" is in no way related to governmental expenditure.

Don't add things to what people are saying and you might understand more. When did I say government expenditure? I said they benefit from the present system.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 The taxing of wealth is in no way related to its nature (actually, the opposite is true!). What you are advocating is pure and simple redistribution of wealth. Under this type of system, it can be shown, the expansion of an economy slows drastically. Once this happens, it becomes harder to acquire and pass on wealth. Then your tax base is gone. etc...

That's not true. It won't prove anything necessarily but can you give me some particulars.

	11-06-2003 06:34									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui 3 or 4? What are you nuts? Just about every family fortune was at one time earned by a person just like Carnegie. Very few families were rich before they got here.

See you're out of touch. I don't know any actual people who are anything like that, and probably no one I know does either.

	11-06-2003 06:37									#195
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quote: See your out of touch. I don't know any actual people who are anything like that, and probably know one I know does either.

Actually I'm sure you are out of touch. You have plenty of people on this site talking about how they made wealth and became well off.

You think Ford or Rockefeller or Bell or Dell were rich before they created their empires? What about the founders of all the other items you use on a day to day basis.

I'm sorry you don't know anyone that was born poor or middle class who never became 'rich', but that says more about your friends that it does reality, doesn't it?

	11-06-2003 06:42									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm sorry you don't know anyone that was born poor or middle class who never became 'rich', but that says more about your friends that it does reality, doesn't it?

No I have real friends. My sister had an imaginary friend, but she doesn't talk to her anymore.

	11-06-2003 06:44									#197
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Kidicious, There are so many problems with your theory that I really cannot begin to list them. Let me simply say that the aquisition and use of wealth is what enables a capitalist system. It is in essence a means of production.

Since I agree with you I don't know what you point is.

	11-06-2003 07:42									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's got nothing to do with wages. That's the best part. You just tax all wealth at the same rate. People who inherit wealth will pay the most tax. The poor will pay none.

So, since wealth = benefit = wealth, and wealthy people receive wealth which is why they're wealthy, then what exactly are you talking about? A tax on assets? Annually? On a one time basis? A great way to destroy capital markets unless the tax is pathetically low, but hey...

I don't want to bother with inheritance taxes, so I'll just pay my kids X million a year, tax free.

Did you ever stop to think that your "real friends" who haven't become rich either (a) have other priorities; (b) haven't pursued opportunities to increase their earnings to create a pool of investible income; or (c) haven't managed their assets well, assuming "getting rich" was their goal?

Plato went from minimum wage to six figures on his own, so presumably he can accumulate a reasonable degree of wealth.

I've gone from minimum wage to high six figures in a good year, and seven figures in 2-3 more years barring major disasters and depending on what tax games I have to play to keep most of it for my own purposes.

So yes, in the real world, people can go from nothing to a reasonable degree of wealth, or even an unreasonable degree, and without breaking Federal controlled substance laws.

	11-06-2003 07:47									#199
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So, since wealth = benefit = wealth, and wealthy people receive wealth which is why they're wealthy, then what exactly are you talking about? A tax on assets? Annually? On a one time basis? A great way to destroy capital markets unless the tax is pathetically low, but hey... I don't want to bother with inheritance taxes, so I'll just pay my kids X million a year, tax free.

No, it's an annual tax. No inheritance tax.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Did you ever stop to think that your "real friends" who haven't become rich either (a) have other priorities; (b) haven't pursued opportunities to increase their earnings to create a pool of investible income; or (c) haven't managed their assets well, assuming "getting rich" was their goal? Plato went from minimum wage to six figures on his own, so presumably he can accumulate a reasonable degree of wealth. I've gone from minimum wage to high six figures in a good year, and seven figures in 2-3 more years barring major disasters and depending on what tax games I have to play to keep most of it for my own purposes. So yes, in the real world, people can go from nothing to a reasonable degree of wealth, or even an unreasonable degree, and without breaking Federal controlled substance laws.

I didn't say people couldn't save money. I just said the people who become so wealthy that they would pay a substantial amount of tax in a wealth tax system are few and fair between.

	11-06-2003 07:52									#200
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MtG,

The capital markets would adjust. The're good at that. Profits would increase because of increased spending. That would offset the consequences of the wealth tax, after the markets adjusted.

	11-06-2003 07:54									#201
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Hardly, since you have to raise two trillion and change to support the Federal budget each year.

If you take people like Gates, et al, you would effectively force them to liquidate their holdings a bit at a time to come up with the cash for the tax - flooding the market on the sale side. You would simply force people like that to move offshore and take their physical assets offshore.

Or do you want to start a global economic war by taxing foreign "wealth?"

	11-06-2003 08:30									#202
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Taxes should be drastically cut when recission occurs and the government should spend in deficit. .... Taxes should be raised when inflationary pressure builds and the government should run a $0 deficit. [ Over the business cycle as a whole -AS] This is the law acording to PLATO

This is practically a direct quote from Keynes The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money. Every politician remembers the first part of this quote. Nobody remembers the second part. So you can see how we have got where we are.

Kid:

Remember that wealth is a stock, income is a flow. If you have an annual wealth tax you would be taxing the same wealth multiple times.

(edit: spelling)

	11-06-2003 08:49									#203
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Hardly, since you have to raise two trillion and change to support the Federal budget each year. If you take people like Gates, et al, you would effectively force them to liquidate their holdings a bit at a time to come up with the cash for the tax - flooding the market on the sale side. You would simply force people like that to move offshore and take their physical assets offshore. Or do you want to start a global economic war by taxing foreign "wealth?"

You're picturing a huge tax evasion that wouldn't occur. People would still save and invest because interest and profit would go up.

	11-06-2003 08:50									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Kid: Remember that wealth is a stock, income is a flow. If you have an annual wealth tax you would be taxing the same wealth multiple times. (edit: spelling)

Yeah.

	11-06-2003 08:52									#205
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quote: You're picturing a huge tax evasion that wouldn't occur.

Rich people wouldn't evade taxes... OMG, I'm laughing so hard, I'm crying!

	11-06-2003 08:59									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're picturing a huge tax evasion that wouldn't occur. People would still save and invest because interest and profit would go up.

If you're going to tax "wealth" however you define it, confined to whoever you think is in the "silver spoon" set, and expect to raise two trillion and change a year, you sure as hell will see "tax avoidance."

Hell, if I was Gates or Ellison, et al, and the US was wacky enough to adopt your system, I'd buy citizenship elsewhere, renounce my US citizenship, and move my assets offshore.

Since a tax has to be paid in current flow (i.e. income), any tax system that affects only those who you say it would affect would require that most of those taxpayers sell off assets just to pay taxes on an annual basis.

You'd see (proportionately larger, of course) the same sort of capital flight as you'd see in any third world bananaland when the new thugocracy starts talking wealth redistribution.

Are you trolling, or do you actually believe the stuff you spout?

	11-06-2003 09:30									#207
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Hell, if I was Gates or Ellison, et al, and the US was wacky enough to adopt your system, I'd buy citizenship elsewhere, renounce my US citizenship, and move my assets offshore.

Some people would renounce their citizenship, but that would be a small enough portion. The economy would be growing much faster, and capital always follows a growing economy.

	11-06-2003 09:32									#208
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Are you trolling, or do you actually believe the stuff you spout?

I never just troll. Why are the various taxes that we have better than a single wealth tax? All of the taxes that we have have consequences too. You aren't looking at that.

	11-06-2003 11:04									#209
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Of course they have consequences. Which are spread somewhere between evenly and progressively across the whole population.

Capital doesn't follow a growing economy, capital follows wherever the opportunity / risk ratio is most favorable. If you tax wealth accumulation above a certain point, you can guarantee capital flight.

	11-06-2003 11:13									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Some people would renounce their citizenship, but that would be a small enough portion. The economy would be growing much faster, and capital always follows a growing economy.

You are a bizarre mixture of Karl Marx and the average Wallstreet economist.

If you have been exposed to the most minimalistic understanding of economics, you have to know that you're spouting total bollocks.