09-06-2003 01:50									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious People keep assuming that trickle down economics is going to work, and it keeps failing. The least we should do is try the opposite one time.

Right on!

And whatever happened to that much vaunted conservative virtue of pragmatism and trying something new when the same old thing keeps failing?

	09-06-2003 01:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Why would the opposite work, and trickle down not? Please explain without reference to labour.

Already explained. More people spending more money means more money to be made by business. Duh!

	09-06-2003 01:54									#123
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"More people spending more money means more money to be made by business"

The same would happen in trickle down. What's the difference?

	09-06-2003 01:54									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Why would the opposite work, and trickle down not? Please explain without reference to labour.

Why do you think wealthy people hate tax on savings? Because they save money. It's just the way it is. Why should we argue about it?

	09-06-2003 01:55									#125
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So if you gave a rich man £10 he would save it, while give a poor man £10 and he would spend it?

	09-06-2003 01:56									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "More people spending more money means more money to be made by business" The same would happen in trickle down. What's the difference?

No, the theory says the opposite. It says that rich people will save their money and that business investment will increase.

	09-06-2003 01:57									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's So if you gave a rich man £10 he would save it, while give a poor man £10 and he would spend it?

On average, overwhelmingly yes.

	09-06-2003 01:57									#128
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Show me the theory, Kiddy.

	09-06-2003 02:01									#129
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First, do you agree now that your savings rate depends on your income, and that a higher savings rate corresponds with higher income?

	09-06-2003 02:03									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's So if you gave a rich man £10 he would save it, while give a poor man £10 and he would spend it?

A rich man can only buy so many dinners, haircuts, and non-durable goods. Give a rich man $10 and that $10 is not going to have an impact if the rich man has already taken in his share. The rich man will save it (effectively taking it out of the marketplace for awhile) or invest it. But the rich man has alreadly very likely engaged in heavy investment, so this $10 is not adding anything there. Moreover, there is no guarantee that the investment will help out the poor man. In fact, if that money goes oversees to increase production at a sweatshop, both the domestic poor man and the oversees poor man are hurt.

Give it to a poor man and he will likely buy something he needs or something he wants but could not afford before getting the money. Money in motion in the marketplace is what creates jobs.

	09-06-2003 02:04									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious First, do you agree now that your savings rate depends on your income, and that a higher savings rate corresponds with higher income?

Depends on the time-frame.

	09-06-2003 02:14									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Depends on the time-frame.

Oh please. What could be more obvious?

	09-06-2003 02:17									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Show me the theory, Kiddy.

The origin of the theory is during the presidency of Calvin Coolidge. US Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon was the 'brains' behind it, if you want to call him that. They cut tax on the wealthy because they believed that it would improve business investment. Remember Coolidge was famous for saying, "The Business of America is Business."

	09-06-2003 02:17									#134
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You seem to be implying Keynesian C function, am I right?

	09-06-2003 02:19									#135
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Well trickle down is a joke, I'll agree to that. For the same, so is "trickle up".

	09-06-2003 02:20									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's You seem to be implying Keynesian C function, am I right?

I wasn't really implying anything. I'm stating an objective fact. There is no reasonable argument to the other side. But yes you understand the function. I guess you don't agree with it though.

	09-06-2003 02:23									#137
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Have a read about Friedman and what he had to say about it. Lots of .pdfs out there.

	09-06-2003 02:45									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Have a read about Friedman and what he had to say about it. Lots of .pdfs out there.

Ah. Silly old Uncle Milty.

	09-06-2003 03:13									#139
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quote: People keep assuming that trickle down economics is going to work, and it keeps failing. The least we should do is try the opposite one time.

The 'war' on poverty failed as well.

quote: We jack up corporate taxes and taxes on income over $200K to cover the shortfall.

And watch as tons of money somehow dissapears into loopholes or overseas (especially those making just a smidge over $200k).

	09-06-2003 04:23									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: We jack up corporate taxes and taxes on income over $200K to cover the shortfall. And watch as tons of money somehow dissapears into loopholes or overseas (especially those making just a smidge over $200k).

Beef up the IRS instead. Enforcement would be freed up from the middle class and poor. Toss some corporate officers who play fast and loose into max security facilities and watch compliance skyrocket.

	09-06-2003 06:27									#141
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Yeah, you can do whatever you want to do. If you want to eliminate poverty and redistribute income it's just a matter of doing it.

	09-06-2003 07:59									#142
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quote: Beef up the IRS instead. Enforcement would be freed up from the middle class and poor. Toss some corporate officers who play fast and loose into max security facilities and watch compliance skyrocket

Who says anyone is playing fast and loose? Loopholes are inherant in the tax structure... you just gotta exploit them... nothing illegal at all.

	09-06-2003 11:58									#143
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This thread...

And then people say Marx is dead....

	09-06-2003 12:11									#144
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OSterlich ist bunt

	09-06-2003 12:18									#145
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Ted, you're making much more sense than usual. Did they put you on medication again?

	09-06-2003 12:26									#146
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Roland ist bunt

	09-06-2003 12:50									#147
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar A rich man can only buy so many dinners, haircuts, and non-durable goods. Give a rich man $10 and that $10 is not going to have an impact if the rich man has already taken in his share. The rich man will save it (effectively taking it out of the marketplace for awhile) or invest it. But the rich man has alreadly very likely engaged in heavy investment, so this $10 is not adding anything there. Moreover, there is no guarantee that the investment will help out the poor man. In fact, if that money goes oversees to increase production at a sweatshop, both the domestic poor man and the oversees poor man are hurt. Give it to a poor man and he will likely buy something he needs or something he wants but could not afford before getting the money. Money in motion in the marketplace is what creates jobs.

There is also an incidental effect on inflation; transferring income to the rich will reduce the number of transactions made yearly by one dollar, therefore creates a deflation effect, whereas transferring the same amount to the poor will increase the number of transactions made yearly by one dollar, which tends to increase the inflation.

	09-06-2003 15:51									#148
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quote: Trickle Up! That helps everyone.

Except for welfare bums.

Best way to kill off the welfare system, social security, etc.

	10-06-2003 11:34									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm stating an objective fact.

There is not one "objective fact" in economics theory. Let alone calling "trickle down is bad" an "objective fact. Hasta la victoria siempre, Comrade.

	10-06-2003 11:36									#150
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler This thread... And then people say Marx is dead....

Marx is. We just have to help more of his followers get close to him.