14-06-2003 23:37									#211
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Says the camp one..

	15-06-2003 01:23									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Says the camp one..

Camp? In what way?

	15-06-2003 13:32									#213
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quote: That's on the books? I thought it was defeated.

Passed by Clinton of all presidents.

	16-06-2003 23:12									#214
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Passed by Clinton to appeal to the conservative vote to beat Dole. It WAS passed in '96.

Stupid politics.

And Boddington: "the Bible says so" is not a justification. America is not, and never has been, a Theocratic state. You cannot discredit laws, regulations, and other citizens based on your faith. Faith and spirituality is inherently personal, so be a good little Christian and shut your howling screamer.

-Ben

	17-06-2003 00:39									#215
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quote: Faith and spirituality is inherently personal, so be a good little Christian and shut your howling screamer.

Heh. Gotta love this threadjack.

What good is faith if not shared? We have no reason to be ashamed of Christ.

	17-06-2003 01:18									#216
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double post

	17-06-2003 01:19									#217
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Don't shove faith down other peoples throats. Furthermore don't violate my rights with your religious convictions, you have no right to shove it in other peoples faces.

	17-06-2003 02:35									#218
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Heh. Gotta love this threadjack. What good is faith if not shared? We have no reason to be ashamed of Christ.

faith wasnt meant to be imposed on others. if people are interested they will come.

	17-06-2003 02:38									#219
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quote: Furthermore don't violate my rights with your religious convictions, you have no right to shove it in other peoples faces.

How many threads on religion have I started?

I have every right to respond to someone who insists faith should be kept in a little jar where no one ever goes.

	17-06-2003 02:41									#220
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Obiwan, you can invite people and expect people to come to your faith, but do not impose on others who are atheist or of different beliefs.

	17-06-2003 02:43									#221
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quote: not impose on others who are atheist or of different beliefs.

I have enough on my hands replying to those who ask.

Peace, Fez?

	17-06-2003 02:51									#222
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Thanks for evading the point of my post.

	17-06-2003 05:03									#223
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You cannot give someone faith. It is a bond -- or understanding -- between the individual and higer power. You can share in a faith, or compare your faiths, or explore these individual bonds with others, but NEVER can you give someone faith.

Sharing is one thing; saying "my faith is right" is another. No faith is right; each one is unique. Following a conservative religious regimented creed is not faith; it is a theocratic law.

And how was that a threadjack? I was told that I could not call someone a bigot because I am hated by the Bible for being gay. Maybe the Bible does hate me, but that doesn't mean that the law should, or that individuals do. It only follows if one believes in it, and not everyone does. It is not a collective moral, and, as such, should not be a basis for secular law.

-Ben

	19-06-2003 01:08									#224
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If morality is not mainly based on the Bible, then what other source is it thus so?

	19-06-2003 01:33									#225
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What source is the morality of China? India? Japan?

	19-06-2003 01:47									#226
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boris, obviously bods doesnt think asians are actually people.

	19-06-2003 01:49									#227
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I'm talking about Western morals and ethics, which is where we live after all.

	19-06-2003 01:51									#228
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quote: If morality is not mainly based on the Bible, then what other source is it thus so?

Human instinct, cultures and the notion of sociological altruism that we are (mostly) born with. Its a relativist thing (its my word of the week in case you havent noticed), where morality is down to the individual as opposed to some fallacious notion of "what is right".

	19-06-2003 01:51									#229
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Are the ethics and morals of Asians all that radically different from our own?

Look at the most commonly cited moral tenets of Western Jude-Christendom, the 10 Commandments. How many of these moral rules also apply to non-Western cultures?

	19-06-2003 01:52									#230
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I think the preceding 6000-8000 years we spent in increasingly civilised societies, living in proximity with many others may have been, at the very least, an influencing factor.

	19-06-2003 02:14									#231
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quote: How many of these moral rules also apply to non-Western cultures?

Boris:

Why don't you answer the question?
All of the moral rules of the bible apply to everyone even Asians. For example, look at how many Christians live in Korea!

	19-06-2003 03:12									#232
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Look how many Hindus live in New Jersey. Is that now a Hindi society?

The point was that non-Western cultures that did not have the Bible also developed similar ethical and moral codes. Not murdering, not stealing, not cheating, etc. are all fairly universal beliefs in the large cultures.

So, without a Bible, where did these moral tenets spring from? The answer is the same place Biblical morality came from: society.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 19-06-2003 at 03:24

	19-06-2003 17:29									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Yes but that totally disrupts my plans to be married in the english garden of an aristocratic manor, with both of us in modern tuxes, my family seated on the right, his on the left, have a witness from the register's office observe, exchange rings with the words "With this ring" on the outside and "I thy wed" on the inside (white gold rings of course!), have the floral display be white roses, serve Vietnamese spring rolls to start followed by a choice between roast pork served on a bed of greens with roast potatos or salmon in a lemon and pepper sauce with stirfried bok choy and finish with a dessert of fresh summer fruits (this wedding shall be in July I say JULY!), and have Charlotte Church sing for us.

Damn, you really put the gay in gay marriage.

	19-06-2003 21:51									#234
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Is this thread eternal?

	20-06-2003 12:35									#235
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Yes

	20-06-2003 12:55									#236
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quote: So, without a Bible, where did these moral tenets spring from? The answer is the same place Biblical morality came from: society.

Boris:

CS Lewis has a different answer to this observation, that people have a law written on the heart from their conscience that transcends barriers of society. He calls this moral agreement the Tao and is generally cited in favour of a universal and not societal morality the fact that there is agreement between disparate societies.

Society can't be the answer if these people all come from different cultures and come up with the same answers.

	19-07-2003 07:18									#237
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Is this anything like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? I've always meant to read that one.

	19-07-2003 07:57									#238
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Boris: All of the moral rules of the bible apply to everyone even Asians. For example, look at how many Christians live in Korea!

No they do not. There are some here who live with different terms so don't try to push the bible on others.

	19-07-2003 08:23									#239
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Why -- why for God's sake did someone revive this thread?

	19-07-2003 08:25									#240
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Blame loinburger.. it wasn't me!