11-06-2003 01:55									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Sava, please..... I wish not everyone would always come up with nazi comparisons...

When it comes to Bodds, it is fair game

	11-06-2003 01:56									#122
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Boris, doesn't it scare you he's merely exaggerating tendencies that are most clearly deep inside of most people?

	11-06-2003 01:59									#123
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No, because I disagree that it is inside most people. Most people I know aren't filled with hate. Hate is carefully taught, as Rogers & Hammerstein so elegantly told us!

	11-06-2003 02:00									#124
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bah. most people (in Europe) are filled with anti-semitism, too. I see it every day. shameful.

	11-06-2003 02:03									#125
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quote: You would have to hate your ancestors to be a heterophobe.

Just the same as how white racists would have to hate their black ancestors.

The idea that a group of people, be them hereosexual, white, or any other subjective ethnicity you wish to name, would treat another differently based on that subjective division, is something I find rather abhorrent.

We are, when one averages out all of our different capacities, all equal.

	11-06-2003 02:24									#126
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quote: Why the need for rules and regulations over it? Why the need for shackles...if the relationship is worth it there is no need for this legal straightjacket.

That's all very well, but what about a faithful partner? Rules and regulations ensure that the faithful partner remains protected in the event that the marriage breaks down. Removing the legal structure ensures that there will be no legal protection, because there will be no way to declare the relationship.

quote: And very few relationships will be stable over a lifetime...

Relationships, yes, but marriages? More than half do remain stable for life.

quote: it is about time we accepted this fact...we should realise that divorce/separation is a fact of life.

Life sucks, but that does not mean we should get rid of the parts that are good. Marriage benefits many people, and should still be kept.

As for Bodds:

Read him carefully, do not dismiss what he has to say. He shows me time and time again why it would be a mistake to ignore him entirely.

	11-06-2003 02:40									#127
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 That's all very well, but what about a faithful partner? Rules and regulations ensure that the faithful partner remains protected in the event that the marriage breaks down. Removing the legal structure ensures that there will be no legal protection, because there will be no way to declare the relationship. Relationships, yes, but marriages? More than half do remain stable for life. Life sucks, but that does not mean we should get rid of the parts that are good. Marriage benefits many people, and should still be kept.

Well if you have shared property it has to be divided up anyway in the event of a division...and should depend on children too...why is this an issue...too often in the past has the 'till death us do part' been a way of keeping females down and faithful with no hope of escape from an abusive husband...or a ball and chain used to keep the other partner at bay. Now I admit, I am not one of the biggest romantics but marriage seems completely and utterly outmoded from my perspective...

And even if 50% of marriages 'last', it still means that a significant proportion do not. And besides, if the marriage lasted why wouldn't the relationship if the bonds formed between the couple are so strong?

And with regards to Bodd's...I've had many years of him, and I know him personally...it is best just to ignore him, trust me

	11-06-2003 03:24									#128
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Again, Bod seems to be fear mongering by exaggerating the prevelance of the extremists -- the extremists are in the minority within the minority group of non-heterosexuals.

Heterophobia is just as wrong as homophobia -- DUH.


Let me count the ways that homosexuals can establish their own families:

adoption

surrogate mother

sperm bank

post-divorce custody of biological child in favor of gay father or lesbian mother

	11-06-2003 03:37									#129
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Provost Harrison:

quote: too often in the past has the 'till death us do part' been a way of keeping females down and faithful with no hope of escape from an abusive husband.

No. Legal marriage protects woman from being dumped by a husband who has found someone younger and more desireable.

Look at common-law relationships. Many times it is the woman who suffers because she has less legal recourse in the event that the relationship dissolves.

I agree, divorce should be available for a woman with an abusive husband, but nowadays has been used far to often for frivolous reasons.

quote: And besides, if the marriage lasted why wouldn't the relationship if the bonds formed between the couple are so strong?

Marriage improves the relationship in many cases because it represents a legal commitment to love your wife to the exclusion of all others, until death do you part. Many times the woman will push for the marriage because she is much more secure inside a marriage than out.

	11-06-2003 03:38									#130
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Mr. Fun:

quote: adoption surrogate mother sperm bank post-divorce custody of biological child in favor of gay father or lesbian mother.

All require the intervention of a third party.

	11-06-2003 03:40									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Now I admit, I am not one of the biggest romantics but marriage seems completely and utterly outmoded from my perspective...

I would agree that legal marriage is outdated. I think marriage should be about a union of souls, not a contract. The ceremonies should be purely symbolic, and a public demonstration of commitment to a relationship.

	11-06-2003 03:40									#132
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I'd like to see any pregnancy and child-birth where no-one else gets involved at any stage.

	11-06-2003 03:41									#133
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 All require the intervention of a third party.

So?

Many heterosexual families are made by the same means. Are they less valuable in your opinion?

My boss flies off to Columbia this summer to adopt her second kid, since she is incapable of conceiving. Would you like to tell her that since it's through a third party, it's somehow lesser than a two-person conception?

	11-06-2003 05:31									#134
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quote: where no-one else gets involved at any stage.

I agree, it takes a village to raise one. It should not take a village to make one.

quote: Since she is incapable of conceiving. Would you like to tell her that since it's through a third party, it's somehow lesser than a two-person conception?

At least she tried to conceive. Are all homosexuals biologically infertile, in the same sense as your boss' wife?

	11-06-2003 07:02									#135
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It's funny that you called this thread heterophobia.

The root meaning of the word is fear of anything that differs. And judging from the increasing trend towards conservatism in America, it's a social phenomenon that could be said to be reaching endemic proportions.

Just thought I'd point out this grammatical issue.

	11-06-2003 16:30									#136
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What is with such silly notions as families created by other means than natural conception as being inllegitimate families??

	11-06-2003 16:33									#137
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 At least she tried to conceive. Are all homosexuals biologically infertile, in the same sense as your boss' wife?

What's the difference?

Why is invitro wrong, since that involves a third party?

I know several married couples who were capable of conceiving, but adopted instead. Is that wrong, yes or no?

I know several married couples who were capable of conceiving, but simply chose not to have kids. Is that wrong, yes or no?

Does any of that have any bearing on the status of their marriage? Yes or no?

	11-06-2003 18:28									#138
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quote: I know several married couples who were capable of conceiving, but adopted instead. Is that wrong, yes or no?

Nothing wrong with a married couple choosing to adopt.

quote: I know several married couples who were capable of conceiving, but simply chose not to have kids. Is that wrong, yes or no?

Irrelevent to the issue at hand. Choosing not to have kids does not bring a third party into play. You're trying to have me back into a different argument.

It's not wrong, but not really a good choice. One of the expectations of a marriage is to produce a family. There are other options, if you are not planning to have kids than to get married.

Eh, now I have to exempt adoption from the other examples, from in-vitro, etc. I don't agree with in-vitro unless one of the parties actually is infertile.

The reason why adoption is different than the other examples is that the child is already here, and needs a loving family. In-vitro seeks to conceive a child.

	11-06-2003 18:57									#139
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quote: The root meaning of the word is fear of anything that differs. And judging from the increasing trend towards conservatism in America, it's a social phenomenon that could be said to be reaching endemic proportions.

Alinestra: Have to say that I agree. Whats more though, I think its a complacent attitude among humans in general, throughout societies. We have shown through more "enlightened" periods in our history (1968 ) that we are capable of moving beyond these punitive, subjective, ethnocentric distinctions between people, and superficial differences being used to determine entire cultural groups and discriminate among them, I just hope that people who advocate treating others diffferently based on their "race" or sexuality or gender etc will see beyond this subjective, narrow-minded notion.

It causes us more harm the longer it goes on without being combated.

	11-06-2003 19:10									#140
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yeah some gays are insufferable and irritating like boris for example.

they think everyone else is gay or should be gay


heterophobia indeed.

	11-06-2003 19:19									#141
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 yeah some gays are insufferable and irritating like boris for example. they think everyone else is gay or should be gay heterophobia indeed.

Where did you get that impression of Boris?

I can speak for myself though -- I certainly don't think everyone should be gay -- and besides, that would not be possible, since sexual orientation is not a choice.

	11-06-2003 19:20									#142
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under 10% of the population is anyway.

	11-06-2003 19:24									#143
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Actually, no one knows the exact percentage -- people argue over the range 1% (which really is a gross underestimate) to 15% (which might be an overestimate).

	11-06-2003 19:58									#144
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Do a Poly poll, I see no reason why the results would be wildly skewed here, unless people intentionally misvote to do so.

	11-06-2003 20:05									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Do a Poly poll, I see no reason why the results would be wildly skewed here, unless people intentionally misvote to do so.

Wanna hear an oxymoron?

accurate Poly poll

	11-06-2003 20:06									#146
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Boris is quite likeable.

Others (of the kind) are less. I won't call any names

	11-06-2003 20:29									#147
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quote: Would you like to tell her that since it's through a third party

Go on then, Woss your boss' email address?

	11-06-2003 20:31									#148
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Wanna hear an oxymoron? accurate Poly poll

I never said it would be accurate, I said it wouldn't be wildly skew.

	11-06-2003 20:35									#149
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that's just MrGa.. err, MrFun being himself...

	11-06-2003 20:43									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion that's just MrGa.. err, MrFun being himself...

I love you too, Ecthelion.