12-06-2003 15:02									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I dont think that Israelis or the Americans would attempt to modify the culture of Islam.

Americans already do. Muslim dictatorships propoganded that all non-muslim must be destroyed as enemies and the idea entred the muslim culture. Now americans in Iraq and Afganistan try to make Islam more tolerant.

quote: The ends in that case do NOT justify the means.

They killed the whole street and no more USA soldiers died. And no more strikes back. And Germans understood, that they are in deep ass. Does this justify the means

	12-06-2003 15:06									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It does justify mass murder, or crimes against humanity, nothing does. FIND ANOTHER WAY!

	12-06-2003 15:08									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Not bombing people is rewarding terrorism?

Yes. But moving everybody to Syberia is better.

Arabs will always find ways to justify their terrorism. If we do not respond on their terror they think that it's sign of weakness and kill us again. If westrike back lightly they justify terror with words of avenge. We must strike as USA do- one serious strike and almost no terrorism in the whole country.

	12-06-2003 15:09									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: It does justify mass murder, or crimes against humanity, nothing does. FIND ANOTHER WAY!

Do you justifi Berlin bombing in WW2?

	12-06-2003 15:10									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

doing what the terrorists want ie fleeing/dieing does reward terrorism.

	12-06-2003 15:12									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: So the Jews run away and you reward terrorism? Which encoroges more terrorism. Soon all the jews are dead. Rewarding terrorism is innane.

Would Hamas be attacking Jews if they were separated by the Atlantic? Many Jews fled Nazi Germany, I'd say that was a wise move, true? Let's face the cause of this terrorism, Israel was carved out of Arab lands recently and alot of Arabs are p!ssed. The question becomes whether or not the terrorists have a more legitimate claim to the land, and I doubt they do, but it's possible some of them are the actual descendents of people who did have a legitimate claim before the state of Israel was created. The irony is that they may be killing Jews who are also descendents of people with the same legitimate claim.

	12-06-2003 15:12									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You expect Iraq or Afghanistan to produce LESS terrorism??

Long term mon ami!

The terrorism is not the Arabs as a people, merely a tiny number, with widespread support. And you cant persecute them for having a point of view, nor shuold you make them all suffer for the actions of a few. History would judge that to be idiotic at best.

	12-06-2003 15:15									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Do you justifi Berlin bombing in WW2?

In war, one has the right to prevent the enemy from making war on you, like self defence, using proportionate force. Historians may argue that it was necessary with Nazi germany, I argue that it is not necessary with the Palestinians, towns and cities, or the entire Muslim race!

quote: doing what the terrorists want ie fleeing/dieing does reward terrorism.

Which is why in practise I dont support leaving Israel, albeit a good idea in principle.

There are other ways to deal with terrorism than bombing their civilians, and modding their cultures, violating their societies. Carrot, the stick plainly doesnt work, I dont see the Israeli bombing of Gaza etc having any effect at stopping terrorism, far from it.

	12-06-2003 15:18									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: state of Israel was created.

State of Israel was created in 20th century BC . Only Greeks were here on the time. If Greece annex Israel it would be kind of lawful.

quote: you cant persecute them for having a point of view

We can. But it'll take few generations.


While USSR was governed by dictature no terrorism was in Chechnya. All terrorists were in Syberia, jails or graves.

	12-06-2003 15:21									#40
	Tired of ads?

Muxec, do you really think Arabs will stop attacking Jews if the Israeli government launches this massive strike? I'd think it would just create more people willing to die in attacks. Your analogy to the US soldier and the retaliation ignores that there were obviously very few East Germans willing to die to kill a US soldier.

	12-06-2003 15:21									#41
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: State of Israel was created in 20th century BC

Exactly how many years was there no state of Israel before 1948? Ignoring the aberration of the crusades, that had been Muslim land for centuries! Are you going to say that England should be returned to the Basques and the Portugese, simply because the original Stone Age settlers were Iberian??

	12-06-2003 15:24									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If you want to get me into demographics, you may wish to learn that the Jewish race first came about in what is now Northern Iraq.

The first Homo Sapians to settle what is now Israel were the ancestors of the Arabs. If anything, they have the strongest claim on the land, if you want to go back as far as you can... and I dont see the neanderthals anywhere... although looking at D!ck Chaney....

	12-06-2003 15:29									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: State of Israel was created in 20th century BC .

Who was there before that?

quote: While USSR was governed by dictature no terrorism was in Chechnya. All terrorists were in Syberia, jails or graves.

Chechnyans only made their move for independence after the Soviet bloc began crumbling and other states obtained independence. I think it's funny you want Diss banned given what you've advocated.

	12-06-2003 15:29									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: We can. But it'll take few generations

I dont need to dignify that with a response do I? How can you justify attacking a people based on their point of view??

quote: While USSR was governed by dictature no terrorism was in Chechnya. All terrorists were in Syberia, jails or graves

You use dictator very loosely there. Chechnia wanted independence AFTER the fall of the USSR. There was no terrorism before then from the Chechens, thus there were no or few chechen terrorists in siberia.

	12-06-2003 15:30									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Diss banned given what you've advocated

Oh no, after all, he wants to persecute people based on their opinions

	12-06-2003 15:43									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Who was there before that?

Canaanites.. they are extinct. So are the Philistines ("Greeks").

	12-06-2003 16:29									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They're not exinct. They're probably assimilated into the Israelite kingdoms.

	12-06-2003 16:48									#48
	Remove this text

tough question

	12-06-2003 17:27									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Would Hamas be attacking Jews if they were separated by the Atlantic?

Cause the Atlnatic would prevent any possibility of a large scale terrorist attack?

	12-06-2003 17:38									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

If the price of to be paid for setting aside a small sliver of land,for just a certain group of people, is continual bloodshed and a cycle of violence, I'm all for the dissolution of israel.

It's not antisemitism, it's common sense IMO. People, on both sides, cling to their deluded notions of "chosen" people, "chosen" god, and "chosen" land, and this is what you get.

	12-06-2003 17:47									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I donīt think that Jews should leave Israel.

But I strongly support the demand that the illegal settlement in the westbank should be either left, or incorporated into a (still to be formed) palestinian state.

After all I think it will diminish tensions between Israelis and Palestinians.
Regardless of this of course Palestinian Terrorists should be brought to justice (by means of Police actions, not by targeted Killings) as well as radical zionists who attempt to kill palestinians (or destroy palestinian properties)

	12-06-2003 17:49									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Setting up the State of Israel was a very bad idea. But what is done is done. They need to find a way to get along with their Arab neighbours, which means coming to a fair settlement with the Palestinians.

	12-06-2003 18:09									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is a stupid thread Dissident

Heaven forbit that if things go badly the people should abandon their country.

They'd have to kill them all in order for that to happen and let me tell you it won't happen ever.
The most casualties since the beggining of the indifada have been on the Palestinian side.

Also setting up the state of Israel cannot be classified as good or bad idea. It was made and that's it. Now the Pals have to stop doing terrorism and the Israelis IDF operations. Israel has the right to live in peace and Pals a right to their own country, if they so want.
Also the creation of states is nothing new, many countries were created after the beggining of the nationalist ideology Israel just happened to be formed a little bit later than the others.

	12-06-2003 18:10									#54
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you go back just over 50 years to 1947 the occupying power in Palestine (the British because they took it from the Turks) was declaring people who wanted their own state to be terrorists and executing them wherever possible. Many of those "terrorists" went on to become soldiers and politicians for the state of Israel. Israel was created despite the theoretically superior armies of the arab countries.

Now the occupying power, Israel (because they took it from everyone else), declares people to be terrorists and kills them where it can. Where enough people are prepared to die to have their own state they usually get it sooner or later. History has a way of repeating itself.

Unless of course one is prepared to contemplate genocide against them. But then the idea that jews should have a homeland safe from the horrors of the "Final Solution" was one of the reasons that most of the world accepted if not actively supported the creation of the modern state of Israel.

It doesn't have to end in a bloodbath but it will unless Israelis (the people who have the power right now) do something to stop history repeating itself.

No-one has clean hands in this mess.

Oh, and I don't have a solution either. But I don't live in Israel so I probably don't know enough to suggest one, I only know enough to see one is needed.

	12-06-2003 18:21									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Where enough people are prepared to die to have their own state they usually get it sooner or later. History has a way of repeating itself.

I'm afraid that's just a romantic wishful thinking. Kurds are amongst such people who don't verify that assessment.

	12-06-2003 18:24									#56
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

"sooner or later" = game isn't over yet.

	12-06-2003 18:26									#57
	Got spare money?

Do centuries count as later?
They have been fighting since for ever and always get screwed.

	12-06-2003 18:36									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by muxec State of Israel was created in 20th century BC . Only Greeks were here on the time. If Greece annex Israel it would be kind of lawful.

That's an odd kind of legitimacy, considering lack of archeological evidence to back it up... Also a bit silly considering lack of Israeli state from AD75(?) to AD1947(?).

I can't really say a lot else on this as I must confess ignorance on Israeli issues (still reading up on it) but I don't see this option as solving the problem - like, where are they going to go?

It's like saying all US citizens descended from Europeans or Africans should give it back to the native Americans - and then where do they go?

It's a total non-starter Dissident.

I think this thread is the biggest troll I have yet seen on Apolyton.

	12-06-2003 18:48									#59
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Azazel They're not exinct. They're probably assimilated into the Israelite kingdoms.

Sure, you didn't slaughter them all? They did sacrifice their young to Baal, you know, the infidels!
They're extinct as far as their culture is considered.

	12-06-2003 18:49									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I can't really say a lot else on this as I must confess ignorance on Israeli issues (still reading up on it) but I don't see this option as solving the problem - like, where are they going to go?

They can come live here in Michigan - great waterskiing and a lot more bowling alleys.