12-06-2003 21:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The history? They took over a piece of land, had a kingdom on it. every so often an empire would roll along, conquer them, then after a few centuries they set up some new variation, while the big boys were in flux. Finally, they pissed of the biggest of them all so much, that power decided :enough of this, lets end it, and they did. Yet all that time, the people believed that land was eternally theirs (even if their God seemed to have a rather tense relatiuon with them). Wow, what an uplifiting history.

in fact they probably didnt take it over - youre very attached to the biblical description of exodus, despite your apparent secularism. they built a kingdom, and a civilization. They were conquered, but maintained themselves on the land,as a distinctive people. They were conqured by rome, as were every people in the the med and most of europe. Oppressed, they rebelled. They were then subject to genocide, slavery and exile. even so they they maintained a continuous presence in the land for the next 1750 years. the people in exile built a great civilization, and survived not only as a religion but as distinct people despite centuries of persecution by many, including (probably) your ancestors. They maintained their language not only as religious tongue, but as a medium for secular scholarship in many fields. They maintained their attachment to the land not only in prayer - but in their holiday cycle - a cycle of harvest festivals that makes sense only for the land of israel - Their identification with the land was central both to their religion and their existence as a people.

when modern conditions enabled them so see beyond fatalism and act to change the world, they fully revived their language, and settled the land.

I could go on, but i wont.

Thank you though for your charecterization of Jewish history. Now i think it is much more clear where you are coming from. Not from a stand on international law, but from your view of the Jews and their history.

	12-06-2003 21:23									#92
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gepap - can you clarify for me - do you understand the difference between stating that the Jews have A claim based on their history, and stating that the Arabs have NO claim. I made that point earlier, and you did not respond to it.

	12-06-2003 21:46									#93
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If some radical Native American group starts blowing up things in America, should Americans abandon America?



what a dumbass thread

	12-06-2003 21:51									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Or perhaps the U.S. should forcibly remove them You are not going to win, they will exterminate every last one of you given enough time. Why continue to hold on to a piece of land that will cost you your life? Because whenever they get a hold of nuclear weapons they will use them. I think the U.S. should set aside land in New Mexico to house all the Isrealis. We can just push the native americans out of the way and take their reservations . But the way I see it, it is a lose-lose situation.

Im an American Jew in N.Y.

If things got bad, I'd be on the first plane, boat or anything over there to join the IDF.

	12-06-2003 22:15									#95
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It's hard for me to feel sorry for the Arabs after they've started numerous wars yet were so incompetent they lost them all. Feeling sorry for war mongering Arabs who got kicked out by the people they tried to kill is kind of like feeling sorry for the Germans who were forced to leave the Sudatenland or East Prussia; sure it sucks but was it really undeserved?

	12-06-2003 22:49									#96
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quote: Originally posted by muxec To MichaelTheGreat: why said something antiarabic on apolyton is antisemitism, but antijewic threads are normal and dont get closed. I ask for serious ban for Dissident!!!

For one thing, there's a difference between anti-Israeli posts/threads and anti-Jewish posts/threads. If someone goes and posts pro-holocaust or pro-genocide, or too bad the suicider didn't take out more jews, or stuff like that, they're gone. Ecthelion got banned yesterday for remarks about Jews, even though in his view, he more or less was joking around.

Most of the world doesn't like Israeli policy much, and when somebody suggests leveling a city of over a million to retaliate for a suicide bombing conducted by a terrorist group, then maybe you can see why. At the very least, Israel isn't the entirely blameless victim.

For another thing, if a thread/post is directed at Israel/Israeli policy, there is a fairly large contingent of Israeli posters who can respond. So threads that fall in the category of criticism of Israel/Israeli policy will not be sensored, unless they go beyond that, to attacks on Jews in general, Judaism as a religion, etc.

	12-06-2003 23:00									#97
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quote: threads that fall in the category of criticism of Israel/Israeli policy will not be sensored

can we fire phasers or photon torpedoes instead?

	12-06-2003 23:32									#98
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quote: Originally posted by muxec I will tell you real story of occupation. It Happend in early 1946 in western Berlin occupied by US army. Some US soldiers lived in simle house with local citizen. And one day accident happened. Locals killed USA soldier. After this americans killed the whole street, where soldier was killed. And no more accidents happened in western Berlin. Some people cant understand nothjing but fear. So should they.

In case you really think this is right, you are a threat to humanity.

Now on topic:
I don't think it is a good solution to move Jews again. They'll be similarly welcome in any part of the world, as soon as it gets serious. I don't think there is any region of the world (deserts maybe excluded) the inhabitants would abandon voluntarily in favour of another people. The problem has to be solved in the region itself and getting rid of Hamas and Sharon would be just a beginning (they would have had a good start today if they tried to avoid damage to those who are not involved).

	13-06-2003 03:04									#99
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark gepap - can you clarify for me - do you understand the difference between stating that the Jews have A claim based on their history, and stating that the Arabs have NO claim. I made that point earlier, and you did not respond to it.

I don't give a rats ass about "Arabs historical claims" either.

quote: Thank you though for your charecterization of Jewish history. Now i think it is much more clear where you are coming from. Not from a stand on international law, but from your view of the Jews and their history.

Bah. I don;t care about "peoples", I care about people, about humanity qas a whole and individual human beings. The great suffering of the Jews goes hand in hand in hand with the articles that also lead to the great survival of the Jews. That settign apart from others is what lead to both. But I do not find any intrinsic value in the self-catogorizations people put on themselves. Identity is a story, and as far as I am concerned, the story sometimes needs to change, as the world around the story changes.

I side with the Pals becuase it just hapeend that come 1922, or 1948 the majority of people on that land were Palestinains, and as someone who beleives in democracy, the people who lived there had the right to decide their destiny. It is sometimes the right of one person to be egotistical, to say no, even to ones that suffer greatly. The Pals were denied that rigth twice., and ever since. If i support Israel's continued existance it is because now a new set of people have set up a life for themselves, and as human beings they do have the right to stay there. Now, there is a cacophiny of rights to be dealt with, and I think they must be deat with. I do not, as i told someone elsewere, value the lievs of individuals above what I see as the intrinsic value of system of right we have built.

As I have said to Vel many times: I can leanr from hisotry, but I do not bind mysef to it, because i is just a story, and I feel no rgeat need to let people die for stories, anymore than I think people should die involutarily for games.

	13-06-2003 03:26									#100
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Here is my plan for boarders. one group will have all the land north of Jerusalem and another group will have the land south of Jerusalem. The Temple Mount will be controlled jointly by both nations.

	13-06-2003 04:10									#101
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quote: Setting up the State of Israel was a very bad idea. But what is done is done. They need to find a way to get along with their Arab neighbours, which means coming to a fair settlement with the Palestinians.

I agree with AH's statement. Creating Israel was probably not the best idea, but now that we (the Allies) put it there, we have to do the best we can to resolve the situation... Relocation is not an option. We made our bed, now we have to sleep in it.

	13-06-2003 05:27									#102
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Sava made the best argument of the lot - shortest too.

If the indians started blowing themselves up would the USA abandon it's territories for Syberia? No.

We won't "lose" either. You lose only by your own definition and by our local one - we're not even close.

	13-06-2003 05:49									#103
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NO, the Jews can stay,

BUT the Zionists should leave Palestine immediately!

For those who do not understand the difference:

"WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE
First some introductions:

1) What is "The people of Israel" ?

The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
It has its own particular, essential, nature.
The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism?

Zionism is a relatively new thing.
It has only existed for a century.
Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.
Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, that through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.
The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as is explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. Then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation." And the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator And this is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reason's the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel, is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:

FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel s in the period of the Zionists. And it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they panned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today ,they incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given y Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant (May we be spared).

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry, Lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist state. Whereas many people have left the Zionist state to live under better conditions in other lands.

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits. And even then very few people respond.

SIXTH -- The Zionists State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry lives in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

SEVENTH -- The Zionists state could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist state.

EIGHTH -- The Zionist state is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

NINTH -- The Zionists state persecute all Jews who are loyal to their faith.

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah. And the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.
It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.

The Zionist terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.

That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. And in every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. And all the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.

However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.


Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.

Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force. With fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.

Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist state will cease to exist.

It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.

Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. And the truth will always remain the truth, by no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one are three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that state is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that state. Zionism and its state have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL."

(source: www.nkusa.org)

	13-06-2003 06:14									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat For another thing, if a thread/post is directed at Israel/Israeli policy, there is a fairly large contingent of Israeli posters who can respond.

I like that a lot about this place.

	13-06-2003 06:20									#105
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If you're not willing to die fighting for your country and land, then what exactly are you willing to die for? If the answer is nothing, then I can't understand why someone even lives. Obviously nothing is important enough. If your own country, people and lands are not up there in priority, then I don't understand your values.

Israel is where it is. Sure, it's controversial, but fact is the little piece of land IS called Israel. They have all the rights to be there, as it has been recognized by almost the whole world. They should continue to live in their own country, or die defending it. And if it's about to fall, then every able man in the free world should come and help them, and if necessary, give their lives too. It is the most important thing there is, because it's about freedom and your right to be there. It's about living free and pursuing happiness at own terms. No one should be able to tell you otherwise. There's no room for surrenderers in this tough planet. Fight until the bloody end, to the last man!

Let me put it this way: How can you live with yourself knowing that you abandoned your lands and country without a fight? Or with fight that was too little? Sickening.

	13-06-2003 06:27									#106
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If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes.
What ever you choose to do, you don't say 'Ok sir' and go live in a gutter.

	13-06-2003 06:41									#107
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edan -

quote: Cause the Atlnatic would prevent any possibility of a large scale terrorist attack?

Gee, you mean if Israel had never been carved out of other people's lands and Jews had been invited to live in the USA, Palestinians would still board ships and planes to come here and die in suicide attacks against Jews?

Pekka -

quote: If you're not willing to die fighting for your country and land, then what exactly are you willing to die for?

I believe that is the mentality of the Palestinians. Now, unless we accept the fiction that Israel's creation involved taking no one's land, then Israelis are not fighting for their land, they are fighting to keep someone else's land.

quote: Let me put it this way: How can you live with yourself knowing that you abandoned your lands and country without a fight? Or with fight that was too little? Sickening.

You mean it's sickening to not support the theft of other people's lands?

	13-06-2003 06:44									#108
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Berzerker, well you come from a point of view that Israel should not be where it is. I think it is where it is, and that's it. And it's not a question of wanting to die for it. It's a question of fighting for it at all costs, and accept that you might get killed doing it.

	13-06-2003 06:46									#109
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quote: If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes.

In the 40's, the big man was the UN and Jews seeking a state of their own.

	13-06-2003 06:54									#110
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And some hundreds of years ago the big man was harrasing native indians? :hmm:

	13-06-2003 06:54									#111
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Pekka -

quote: Berzerker, well you come from a point of view that Israel should not be where it is. I think it is where it is, and that's it.

Hence the violence.

quote: And it's not a question of wanting to die for it. It's a question of fighting for it at all costs, and accept that you might get killed doing it.

You seem to think the creation of Israel was entirely legitimate, I don't. The land should belong to the people (and their descendents) who lived there before Israel came to exist in the 40's, whether they be Arab, Jew, or whatever. You can't just grab a people's land and expect nothing to happen... But I suspect most of the Palestinian population has no more legitimate claim to that land than the Jews. Both sides have convinced themselves they deserve the land, but I would not be one of those who would stay in a land where millions want to kill me because they believe my land belongs to them and they just might be right.

	13-06-2003 06:56									#112
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Well, I just disagree with you there.

	13-06-2003 06:56									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker edan - Gee, you mean if Israel had never been carved out of other people's lands

You mean like Jordan, Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, all of which were carved out of the ottoman empire. Israel and Palestine were to be split between the two peoples in the area - I see that as the best solution to the situation at the time.

However, the question was about Jews leaving Israel now, so this is just a Strawman's argument.

quote: and Jews had been invited to live in the USA, Palestinians would still board ships and planes to come here and die in suicide attacks against Jews?

Well, Al Qaeda terrorists came to the USA, killed 3,000 people including Jews, and their primary motivation was not the existance of Israel. So yes, I do.

	13-06-2003 07:04									#114
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Pekka -

quote: And some hundreds of years ago the big man was harrasing native indians? :hmm:

1) Native Americans aren't trying to blow us up.

2) Had I lived 150 years ago, I would not have been among those doing the harassing.

3) Unlike Israel, there was plenty of land here for everyone.

	13-06-2003 07:07									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker 3) Unlike Israel, there was plenty of land here for everyone.

Given that the land holds approx 10 times the amount of people than half a century ago, I don't think this is the case.

	13-06-2003 07:14									#116
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Edan -

quote: You mean like Jordan, Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, all of which were carved out of the ottoman empire.

You must think I would have supported the states created then too, nope.

quote: Israel and Palestine were to be split between the two peoples in the area - I see that as the best solution to the situation at the time.

Which is entirely different from the question posed by Diss. If my children had to die before getting that best solution, I'd move to a land where millions aren't trying to kill them.

quote: However, the question was about Jews leaving Israel now, so this is just a Strawman's argument.

Claims of legitimacy wrt the land is not a strawman.

	13-06-2003 07:19									#117
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Edan -

quote: Given that the land holds approx 10 times the amount of people than half a century ago, I don't think this is the case.

Why does the current population matter? And even with the current population, there is still plenty of land. Are you suggesting the "American" population 150 years ago was too large to accomodate the Indian population at that time?

	13-06-2003 07:24									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Edan - Why does the current population matter?

You're the one that brought up there being enough land for the people.

quote: And even with the current population, there is still plenty of land. Are you suggesting the "American" population 150 years ago was too large to accomodate the Indian population at that time?

I'm suggesting your this argument that there wasn't enough land is as much of a strawman as the last argument was. There was enough land for both the Native Americans and the new Americans, and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs, that doesn't change that Jews aren't all going to get up and leave Israel any more than Americans would get up and leave the US if Native Americans started to use terrorism.

	13-06-2003 08:25									#119
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quote: and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs,

Not according to the British. The British white papers clearly state that the jewish immigration has to be severly curtailed unless the indigenous population were to be displaced.

So Berzerkers point is more than valid.

	13-06-2003 08:39									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel They're not exinct. They're probably assimilated into the Israelite kingdoms.

Archaeological evidence (at least as of the last I followed archaeology in the area ~1998 and 1999 finds) suggests that the Caananites were gradually assimilated, not conquered or exterminated or driven out.