13-06-2003 10:40									#121
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ergo you acknowledge Israel had a right to exist within the 1948 ceasefire lines, a right which has existed since 1948?

I would not say it is a right per se since the chopping up work was done by an imperialist power against the oppressed people.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And you acknowledge that the arab states and the palestinians refused to recognize that state from 1948 to 1967, and engaged in acts of violence, including terrorism against civilians to destroy that state??

And? Recognition of a new country or government is not mandatory. Besides, your logic cuts both ways. Israel has been occupying Palestinian teritorry and blocking these people to form their own country. You can't have it both ways.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and therefore that Israel has a right to claim adjustments to the 1948 lines in order to rectify the security situation, as WELL as to reject a right of return of refugees that would violate her own self-determination.

That simply doesn't follow.

	13-06-2003 10:42									#122
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Edan -

quote: You're the one that brought up there being enough land for the people.

And were we not discussing the 19th century when Indians were being driven from their lands? Therefore, the current US population is irrelevant...You brought that up, not me...

quote: I'm suggesting your this argument that there wasn't enough land is as much of a strawman as the last argument was.

You need population maps for 1850 USA and 1948 Palestine/Israel?

quote: There was enough land for both the Native Americans and the new Americans, and there was enough land for the Jews and the Arabs.

I guess you do.

The fact remains that both lands were grabbed by outsiders and the indigenous peoples fought back. I would not have supported the land grab in either case...

	13-06-2003 11:52									#123
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OK I just asked a question jeez.

Talk about taking heat, you haven't seen my real opinion on this matter.

First of all the original post was posing a question.

I'm only on page 2 right now, but I haven't see the obvious rebuttal. Americans would never abandon their land if there were millions of people out to kill them. In fact there already are millions of people in the world who want Americans dead. We aren't going anywhere.

But now for my real opinion. Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal. So you kind of have to expect the rightful owners to be upset. While I don't recommend leaving now, as that would be rewarding terrorism, some concessions have to be made.

	13-06-2003 12:03									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I think this thread is the biggest troll I have yet seen on Apolyton.

Thank You

not that I would ever admit to trolling. That is for the reader to decide.

What I do I would not call trolling. Although sometimes it appears so. There is a method to my madness. I like to test the waters you could say.

	13-06-2003 13:58									#125
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quote: Americans would never abandon their land if there were millions of people out to kill them. In fact there already are millions of people in the world who want Americans dead. We aren't going anywhere.

And you would have Americans move closer to them?

	13-06-2003 15:42									#126
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quote: Archaeological evidence (at least as of the last I followed archaeology in the area ~1998 and 1999 finds) suggests that the Caananites were gradually assimilated, not conquered or exterminated or driven out.

Actually, to be more precise, since all of the Hebrew art, language, and previous dieties are Canaanite, any distinction between Israelite and canaanite is somewhat incorrect. Hebrews were just one of the dominating forces amongst the canaanites, together with the Phoenicians. ( and were always in great relations with the phoenicians. ) The Hebrew word for god, 'El', was actually a canaanite Deity, who's cult center was located in Jerusalem. There is actually a funny passage about it in the Bible's first book, with Abraham supposedly meeting a High Priest of El, who offered him gifts for defeating some kings.

	13-06-2003 15:55									#127
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Dissident: Why's that? And since when has legality over the creation of a state ever mattered? Fact is, it would be ridiculous to deport millions of people from their homes--just because the arabs hold onto the ridiculous dream that it will happen doesn't mean it will.
Especially because the large majority of arabs have little motivation to really attack (not just swear they will) Israel.

	13-06-2003 16:31									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka If a big man comes to your house and says that the house is now his, and you have to leave, what do you do? You call the cops. What if there is no one to help you? You might leave, but you'll be coming back with guns. Or, if you're a bad ass, you'll go right for the eyes. What ever you choose to do, you don't say 'Ok sir' and go live in a gutter.

That pretty much summarises the Palestinian position.

	13-06-2003 18:56									#129
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Well I'm not saying Palestine should leave. They should stop fighting for a while.

	13-06-2003 21:16									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal.

Israel was created by the UN, and was able to defend itself against invasion militarily. how, exactly, is the creation of Israel any less legal (or less legitimate) than the creation of any other country?

	13-06-2003 21:31									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident OK I just asked a question jeez. But now for my real opinion. Unless I'm missing something, the creation of Israel was illegal.

thats only one from many many other illegalities

	13-06-2003 21:35									#132
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Israel has a UN granted right to exist. Don't like it? Tough. Further they have a right to defend themselves from the vicious attacks of Arab murders. The Israelis have come up with numerous plans for peace over the years but the fanatical Arabs with their fanatical leadership have always rejected peace and opted for violence.

In that light they have a right to impose curfews, occupy, or do just about anything short of mass murder in order to combat Arab terrorists. Just like the Allies had a right to do the same against the facist scum after WW2. Remember it is the Arabs who refuse to end the fight and who commit nearly all of the atrocities now days; like the Nazis before them I just don't feel pity for them when they get their come-up-ance.

	13-06-2003 23:24									#133
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quote: And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.).

Kroeze, I respect your right to an opinion, but you are not serousely believing holocaust was a work of Zionists?

	13-06-2003 23:54									#134
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The sad thing is I think he does. There are many things which Zionists have supported but the Holocaust was not one of them.

	14-06-2003 12:37									#135
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Its more about religion than land. The Israelis would no more give up Jerusalem than the Arabs would give up Mecca. There won't be any real peace until some attitudes are adjusted (and the Arabs definitely need their paradigms shifted more than the Israelis).

	14-06-2003 15:57									#136
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quote: Israel has a UN granted right to exist. Don't like it? Tough.

The UN doesn't have the authority, "legal" or moral, to steal someone's land to make a country for somebody else (read the UN charter). Obviously they don't like it, that's why so many of them are willing to die to kill Israelis. You should understand that position given your "might makes right" argument.

	15-06-2003 01:36									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The UN doesn't have the authority, "legal" or moral, to steal someone's land to make a country for somebody else (read the UN charter). Obviously they don't like it, that's why so many of them are willing to die to kill Israelis. You should understand that position given your "might makes right" argument.

hi ,

what stolen land , .....



bye

	15-06-2003 05:20									#138
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Well, it could be said that the Israelis are receiving payment for their impatience (a very violent and perhaps rather unfair payment, obviously).

Everything could possibly be better if they'd have waited until negotiations could take place in a quieter environment...but no, they *had* to get their state quickly, without reaching a settlement with the Arabs first, not caring/wanting to have anything to do with them (at least in those first years, from what I've gathered)....And now they have to live with the results, at least until the situation is corrected (don't ask me how to do it though). But no, they shouldn't abandon Israel.

	15-06-2003 05:44									#139
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quote: The UN doesn't have the authority, "legal" or moral, to steal someone's land to make a country for somebody else (read the UN charter). Obviously they don't like it, that's why so many of them are willing to die to kill Israelis. You should understand that position given your "might makes right" argument

That's the difference between sovereignity and ownership.

Israel doesn't have to own 100% of land to be soveriegn of it.

And unless you think that each arab land-owner was a sovereign, Israel is the rightful sovereign of all the land attributed to it by the UN, and all the land later conquered for it's security, in defensive (though at times per-emptive) wars.

	15-06-2003 22:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Well, it could be said that the Israelis are receiving payment for their impatience (a very violent and perhaps rather unfair payment, obviously). Everything could possibly be better if they'd have waited until negotiations could take place in a quieter environment...but no, they *had* to get their state quickly, without reaching a settlement with the Arabs first, not caring/wanting to have anything to do with them (at least in those first years, from what I've gathered)....And now they have to live with the results, at least until the situation is corrected (don't ask me how to do it though). But no, they shouldn't abandon Israel.

hi ,

they did not want negociations they where planning the destruction and cutting it up between egypt , jordan and syria and even iraq was involved since 1946 , ......

so please , we did not declare war or wanted the destruction of other people , ....

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 16:29									#141
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quote: can you explain for me why the German-Polish frontier was moved to the Oder Niesse line - restoring Polish soveriegnty over lands that hadnt been ethnically polish or under polish rule for over 700 years?? Or is the magic cutoff somewhere longer than 700 years, but shorter than 1700 years? ditto for east prussia. and for "greek" macedonia??

Upper Silesia and southern Prussia in fact were ethnically Polish up till that time. Lower Silesia and Western Pomerania were in XX century German, but not for that long; up till XIX century, villlages around capital of Lower Silesia were speaking Polish.
Again, Silesia wasn't a part of Kingdom of Poland for over 500 years, but it wasn't part of German state since then as well...

	17-06-2003 18:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson . Again, Silesia wasn't a part of Kingdom of Poland for over 500 years, but it wasn't part of German state since then as well...

it was part of prussia, and before that Austria - and i believe german speaking states before that. True it wasnt part of a national germany. But then Palestine wasnt part of a national "palestine" ever.

	23-06-2003 13:58									#143
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark it was part of prussia, and before that Austria

Not quite;
it became a part of Prussia after three Silesian wars, in XVIII century, and earlier it was partly a fief and partly a part of Bohemian kingdom, which was in union with Austria.

quote: - and i believe german speaking states before that.

It depends on what You mean by "german speaking";
if it is about the official language, it's true when it comes to some duchies of it (in Lower Silesia mostly); when it comes to the majority of population, it is wrong.

quote: True it wasnt part of a national germany. But then Palestine wasnt part of a national "palestine" ever.

That's a very bad comparison, as there was never such a thing as palestinian nation up till modern times, and ethnicy of it haven't changed for some 1000 years
(since Arabic became dominant pretty quickly there, even longer) up till Jewish mass immigration to it, while Silesia's ethnicy was changing every century - with Polish element getting weaker, and German growing in power, since the start of German settlement in XIII century. Originally, it was a part of Poland and it was inhabited by Poles. Moreover, most of its former German citizens bare Polish surnames, indicating their Polish roots.

	30-06-2003 08:44									#144
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quote: That's a very bad comparison, as there was never such a thing as palestinian nation up till modern times, and ethnicy of it haven't changed for some 1000 years

Of course ethnicity has changed.
It changed in the 7th century with muslem conquests and immigration.
It changed in key cities several times during the crusades.

Some Jews began returning to "Palestine" as early as the 12th century.

	30-06-2003 16:40									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: That's a very bad comparison, as there was never such a thing as palestinian nation up till modern times, and ethnicy of it haven't changed for some 1000 years Of course ethnicity has changed. It changed in the 7th century with muslem conquests and immigration. It changed in key cities several times during the crusades. Some Jews began returning to "Palestine" as early as the 12th century.

When it comes to rabic conquests, I wrote; in last 1000 years. When it comes to crusade times... Well, ethnicy changed only in few major cities, and not that much, Latin colonisation wasn't very successful. And in that times, Jews were only present in Jerusalem (well, until crusaders came in), Tiberias and Safad.

	30-06-2003 17:11									#146
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quote: When it comes to rabic conquests, I wrote;

I don't remember rabbis conquering anything

From what I gathered the population of western palestine (without what is now Jordan) was very limited, and has only began seriously growing around the 19th century from immigration rom other areas of palestine and syria.

Can you confirm / disprove that?

	30-06-2003 17:25									#147
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I propose building a large wall around Palestine and Israel.

	30-06-2003 17:30									#148
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I don't think that they should abandon their country, but the idea that by simply asking the question Dissident was being anti-jew is silly.

	30-06-2003 17:35									#149
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Highly interesting how zionism includes anti-arabism, though. I'm going to remember muxec's view on that.

	30-06-2003 18:12									#150
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I hardly see how zionism is anti-arabist in the ethnical sense.

Yes it is a national issue and conflict. And yes, Zionism is conflicting with similar national aspirations on the arab side, and wishes to "eliminate" competition for the holy land. (not necessarily by means of genocide).


But I think that the right wing view on it is much less anti-arabist (even with all the racist rhethoric that is being added for the last 20 years) because the right wing views the Palestinians as eqal people with equal aspirations who want respect and will not desert their hopes. The right thinks that the Palestinians will not give up and will fight, and that leaves one way - conflict, until the achievement of a stalemate and then a peace agreement out of lack of other options.

At this time, the dovish left, expects the palestinians to take it up the ass and love it. The Israeli left for a long time thought that the arabs would be ever so happy to get 'modernized' and 'liberated' and would be only happy to live peacefully with the jews, who would use their european knowledge and money to 'advance' the arab cuture to their own level.

In that sense, the lefties are very much under estimating the arabs and inserting imperalistic pre-conceptions, while the righties (some of whom admittedly have relgious or racist issues) do think of the Palestinians as equals, and it is exactly for that reason that they seek force as a resolution - they think the arabs have enough stamina and self respect to fight for what they think is theirs.