13-06-2003 00:29									#61
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Laugh it up Fuzzball, I did find where New York is trying to get 21 Federal billion to subsidize New York's metro system, hell you could buy all of WI for that.

	13-06-2003 00:31									#62
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if he was jimmytrick he would have some really crazy conspiracy theories...borderline Ned theories.

	13-06-2003 00:33									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Laugh it up Fuzzball, I did find where New York is trying to get 21 Federal billion to subsidize New York's metro system, hell you could buy all of WI for that.

OoooOOOOOooh no! A state trying to get Federal money! That almost NEVER happens, does it?

	13-06-2003 00:35									#64
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so defiant, youre saying the subway system of new york is worth the same amount of wisconsin. i feel bad for wisconsin now...

	13-06-2003 00:36									#65
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Don't... Wisconsin has much better cheese .

	13-06-2003 00:36									#66
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Alright Boris,
When I am wrong I admit it. Attached is the site for tax payments and receipts. Take a look, Virginia is the big slug not New York or California.

http://www.ppinys.org/nybalpayments.htm#table

Makes sense now, the naval bases in Virginia have to be a huge draw of financial resoureces.

	13-06-2003 00:38									#67
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Isn't that pathetic, 21 billion and my state couldn't raise 21 billion if we legalized prostitution, however does not make my state any less valuable.

	13-06-2003 00:39									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola But for the electorial college system, you would see the recounts and lawsuits that happened in some counties in Florida last time, happening in every large county in every state anytime you have a halfway close (withind couple million or so votes) presidential election.

Shouldn't there be a federation-wide standard for votes, that makes sure the absurdities we have seen in some counties don't happen ? (or happen everywhere at the same time, if the bureaucrats didn't pay enough attention ? )

	13-06-2003 00:43									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But in a direct popular vote, you're vote (for a third party President) probably wouldn't count either .

If you had a two-round competition, and no electoral college, you might have results that will surprise yourself... Maybe the 50% that don't vote will find somethin appealing in the supply, which has now some chance to win or to get heard ?

The one-round competition PLUS the EC makes it practically sure that a small party will get nearly no votes. After all, if I strongly hate the GoP, my only choice to bar them from power is to vote Democrat, since I know no other party will ever win. That's exactly why Nader brought so few votes last time, and that's why a bunch of Democrats have accused him of causing Gore's defeat

	13-06-2003 00:46									#70
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Spiffor,
Gore's defeat came because of Clinton. Why do you hate the GOP so bad?

	13-06-2003 00:48									#71
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Graceful in victory. (teehee!)

States schmates. Let the votes of all Americans count equally, wheresoever they may live. Wisconsin's interest will be protected in the Senate. The POTUS is not supposed to represent the interests of the states, but of all Americans. The Senators and congresspersons take care of representing the states.

	13-06-2003 00:55									#72
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Notice Wisconsin paid also, buckwheat. The Senate represents the state and the house the people and the EC does the same in its nature. Look, my dumbass state threw it's miserable 11 votes(i think) to Gore and it was a close popular vote, so if anybody should be b!tching it should be me, but WE cannot and we should not put little value on the smaller states.

Afterall, it is the "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA".

	13-06-2003 00:55									#73
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I come from Arkansas.

Arkansas has 2 million people.

California has 30 million people.

Would I give a damn if my vote counted 1 / 15th of theirs, related to state?

No, because I consider myself an American, not an Arkansan.

---

Oh and as for the midwest debate-- Dude. Quit being a sectionalist brat.

And BTW, North Dakota produces $2 billion in taxes but gets $3 billion from the federal government IIRC.

	13-06-2003 00:58									#74
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I agree with Boris.

Defiant, you have a real chip on your shoulder about the Coasts (something tells me the East Coast, particularly the NE, more than the West). Such vitriol!

I've been to Wisconsin. Madison is quite nice. I have nothing against your state. But I don't see how you ought to have more say in who gets to be president than Boris or I.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 00:59									#75
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I'm happy for you Mitchell, maybe we should dissolve all states and call ourself United America!

	13-06-2003 01:02									#76
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Arrian,
I am not looking at it as more, just more equal. It is no secret that parts of America vote differently and all should be equally represented in the vote, yes?

Do you think the midwest would ever be represented in a presidential election based on a true populas vote?

	13-06-2003 01:04									#77
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Alright dude! Let's get on it. Hm, first, maybe we could gradually consolidate the states...let's see, you draft the bill and I'll start rounding up support for it.

	13-06-2003 01:05									#78
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Amazing how many Republican-dominated states get to suckle from the Federal teet at the expense of other states, yet NE and West coast liberals are accused of irresponsible welfare programs!

	13-06-2003 01:05									#79
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thats where congress kicks in defiant.

	13-06-2003 01:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Gore's defeat came because of Clinton. Why do you hate the GOP so bad?

Actually, I hoped for Bush's victory on this one, because I hope his isolationist policies would leave the world alone while he messes up with the US only (it was before Sept. 11 and before Bush thinks of himself as an international Statesman).

But in normal circumstances, since I am way to the left, I would have thought of voting Nader or Labour, but I may have ended up voting for the treacherous and spineless Democrats (who at least aren't anti-abortion religious whackos) to bar the GOP from power, simply because I knew it is the only way to have my vote count.

I.e, Imran, your current system would not satisfy my political views. It is unsufficiently democratic. The only way for the two big parties to lose power would be to mess up dramatically, like bombing whole American towns or something...

	13-06-2003 01:06									#81
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Arrian,
I have been to San Jose, San Francisco, New York, Albany, it is the representation of the states I worry about. California is liberal and so is New York and most of New England for that matter, and their values will override the Midwest which is historically more conservative.
I had a girlfriend leave me for California because she hated snow, so she told me, other than that my reasoning is purely political.

	13-06-2003 01:08									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Arrian, I am not looking at it as more, just more equal. It is no secret that parts of America vote differently and all should be equally represented in the vote, yes?

People should be represented, not land masses. Seems more sensible, don't it.

quote: Do you think the midwest would ever be represented in a presidential election based on a true populas vote?

I asked you to provide an example of a single election wherein a President was elected solely by large states at the expense of the smaller states.

You'll note that, in the last presidential election, the Midwest was rather divided. Contrary to your implication, it is not a monolithic voting block. How horrible that Wisconsin and Illinois weren't represented, but Missouri and Indiana were!

	13-06-2003 01:10									#83
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Boris,
That is because the largest immigrant population comes in through California, New York, Florida, Texas and in all honesty when they get the chance to vote, easier than ever to get citizenship, how do you think they vote.

	13-06-2003 01:13									#84
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quote: Arrian, I am not looking at it as more, just more equal. It is no secret that parts of America vote differently and all should be equally represented in the vote, yes? Do you think the midwest would ever be represented in a presidential election based on a true populas vote?

Yes.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 01:15									#85
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quote: Arrian, I have been to San Jose, San Francisco, New York, Albany, it is the representation of the states I worry about. California is liberal and so is New York and most of New England for that matter, and their values will override the Midwest which is historically more conservative.

Waaaah. So? If most of the country is liberal, the conservatives SHOULD LOSE.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 01:16									#86
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Thanks Boris. I didnt know how to phrase that.

Oh and Def, I should have the right to b!tch too...my state threw away its, I think SIX votes on Bush, even though my county voted Gore! Outrageous, it is, that the majority gets its way. We really should meet up some time and talk about how our respective minorities (neoconservatives and southern liberals) are so mistreated.

	13-06-2003 01:16									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Arrian, I have been to San Jose, San Francisco, New York, Albany, it is the representation of the states I worry about. California is liberal and so is New York and most of New England for that matter, and their values will override the Midwest which is historically more conservative.

So you want to maintain an inegalitarian system to perpetuate your personal political idealogy?

The hysteria over "smaller states being ignored" is nonsensical. If every conservative President elected had been so like Bush was, with a minority amount of the vote, you might have a point. But that was purely an anomoly. Conservatives can win the popular vote, can't they?

	13-06-2003 01:17									#88
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Boris,
It is not land masses, but culture, morals and values and they differentiate within the United States.
Off hand Boris, I dont' know of any election has been won by the large states at the expense of smaller. Haven't done any research, how many and which one of the big states are needed for electoral victory, do you know, I don't off hand.

	13-06-2003 01:18									#89
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* Continuation of Boris *

And if they can't win, then are they really the interest of the people? (Hint: No. )

	13-06-2003 01:20									#90
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Why are people from New York and California complaining about the current system anyway? They have the most influence and the system as it stands now.