13-06-2003 03:13									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's time to move away from sectarian "states rights" nonsense and embrace One America, Indivisible. States Rights are doing more to pull this country apart than anything else. Over my dead body . States Rights should be STRENGTHENED, not weakened. I want more state control of things, from drinking age to drug use laws.

Hmm, is your browser ok? I'm curious, because it seems to have mysteriously made you think I said something akin to "do away with all state authority!" as opposed to my above quoted desire to end a mentality of state sectarianism when it came to elections.

Any other strawmen?

	13-06-2003 03:27									#122
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Screw states rights! (damn them albany idiots).

As for the EC: New York and Cali on't benefit from the system, specially NW. More people voted for Bush in Cali than in the Dakota's Wyoming and Montana combined, and yet, at the end, their votes for Bush counted for naught, since all of Cali's EC votes went to Gore. If you want the states picking the prez, have state legislatures always choose whom the state will vote for. Those guys are elected, so the decision is as dmeocratci as it is now, and perhap it would draw people to actually care about their local reps.

	13-06-2003 05:13									#123
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If we had a popular vote, that means a razor thin election like the last one would have been completely recount, every hanging chad from Maine to Hawai'i

	13-06-2003 05:22									#124
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quote: Hmm, is your browser ok? I'm curious, because it seems to have mysteriously made you think I said something akin to "do away with all state authority!" as opposed to my above quoted desire to end a mentality of state sectarianism when it came to elections.

They are the same thing. State sectarianism comes from the idea that states have authority and can put into place laws that other states will not have. It is this belief that of 'states rights' sectarianism which allows for MORE powers to be transfered to the states. If there wasn't this strong belief, much more would be under the federal hand.

Basically, you can't have real state authority without state sectarianism.

	13-06-2003 07:31									#125
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I may be wrong, but I see American States as little more than big administrative districts. From my side of the Atlantic, few have an identity on their own (Texas, California, Florida, NY, and maybe Hawaii but that's about it) which explains the internal divisions of, say, Germany.

Except for the "identity" States, do people give a rat's ass about if they're living in Oklahoma, Washington or Tenessee ? Do people feel really Tenessian ?

	13-06-2003 07:32									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar If we had a popular vote, that means a razor thin election like the last one would have been completely recount, every hanging chad from Maine to Hawai'i

Doubt it. The margin was 500,000 votes, which is comfortable enough to say a recount won't alter.

	13-06-2003 07:49									#127
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Coming into this thread late, but here goes anyway: My state has a grand total of *3* electoral votes — we have two senators and the minimum of one representative in Washington, D.C.

Suffice to say, I don't see too many national politicians visiting my state — i.e. presidential candidates and their supporters — unless an election is really tight. How often does that happen? Hardly ever. Most of the time the "big" states — California, New York, Texas, Florida, Illinois and Ohio — are already decided well before the election when it comes to electoral votes (i.e. they're "leaning" for candidate or the another and rarely ambiguous). That means the candidates spend most of their times in those states, ignoring the smaller states in the union.

If the Electoral College would just disappear, I can't help but think that my state would be completely ignored, not just mostly ignored. The big states and cities would get even more attention and the heartland would fall back to "flyover" status even moreso than it is now. However, if the EC were to change somewhat by making electoral votes go to candidates based on, say, percentages of vote take (i.e. Candiate "A" got 40 percent of the vote in State "C," and Candidate "B" got 55 percent of the vote in State "C," ... thereby the EC votes are split accordingly), then things would become even more interesting and, to me, an acceptable revision of the EC.

Hell, about the only time a president comes to my state anymore is when he's here to campaign against one or both of our senators. Yeah, Mr. President, I'm sure you *really* give a damn about us. Right. Sure. Yep. At least until we do what you suggest and vote your political foes out of office and your cronies into office, at which time you go back to ignoring our concerns once again. Not too many presidents are capable of breaking that mold, because statesmanship is a rare commodity nowadays.

Gatekeeper

	13-06-2003 07:54									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I may be wrong, but I see American States as little more than big administrative districts. From my side of the Atlantic, few have an identity on their own (Texas, California, Florida, NY, and maybe Hawaii but that's about it) which explains the internal divisions of, say, Germany. Except for the "identity" States, do people give a rat's ass about if they're living in Oklahoma, Washington or Tenessee ? Do people feel really Tenessian ?

The armies of South Dakota shall smite the European Union!!!

[North Korea whining mode]

We are a nuclear power! We have dozens of bombers and "x" number of nuclear warheads based at Ellsworth Air Force Base! We shall not hesitate to use them against the hegemons of the world who dare to threaten us with sanctions! And how dare you redeploy your troops *away* from our artillery! You're preparing for World War III! The armies of South Dakota shall triumph, no matter the odds!

[/North Korea whining mode]

Gatekeeper

	13-06-2003 07:56									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Doubt it. The margin was 500,000 votes, which is comfortable enough to say a recount won't alter.

Out of how many eligible voters?

	13-06-2003 07:58									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I may be wrong, but I see American States as little more than big administrative districts. From my side of the Atlantic, few have an identity on their own (Texas, California, Florida, NY, and maybe Hawaii but that's about it) which explains the internal divisions of, say, Germany. Except for the "identity" States, do people give a rat's ass about if they're living in Oklahoma, Washington or Tenessee ? Do people feel really Tenessian ?

Nope. Since we're a Federalist republic, an astonishing amount of power is held by the states. Which is why so much funding for social services comes from the states rather than the Federal government. This is under the "all other powers not mentioned" article of the Federal Constitution.

	13-06-2003 09:09									#131
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Spiffor, The US states are somewhat equivalent to German states.

BTW, Minnesota is the best state.

	13-06-2003 09:33									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Odin BTW, Minnesota is the best state.

It's the only state run by the WWE!

	13-06-2003 09:44									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's the only state run by the WWE!

Sorry, Jessie the "Libertarian Wacko" Ventura is history. Now we have a conservative @sshole who is ruining our education system because he wants no tax hikes. What ever happenned to the Minnesota of Humphrey, Wellstone, and Mondale?

	13-06-2003 11:27									#134
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It still has a purpose just like when they first used it.

Even back then they feared the large cities getting too much political power.

without an electoral college rurals states and communities would have no say in presidential politics.

And no republic would ever get elected without the electoral college

	13-06-2003 19:09									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I may be wrong, but I see American States as little more than big administrative districts.

In many areas the states have superior sovereingty to the federal goverment. They have all powers Not prohibited to them by the constitutiion. The Federal has only the only express and implied powers granted to it by the constitution, and is thus limited in jurisdiction. Where it has juridiction the Fed power is supreme over the the states overlapping power. A big variable is the effective sovereignty over land titles. This varies in effective because most of the west was from out of Federal goverment owned territory, and much of their territory is still owned by the the federal goverment and indian reservations of sovereignty.

	14-06-2003 12:06									#136
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I believe our founding fathers created the electoral college because they believed the average voter to be too stupid to know what is good for them. We shouldn't change it until we can prove them wrong. Those Florida voters who don't even read their ballots before they do a half-assed job of punching them are just proving the point.