12-06-2003 23:11									#31
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Well, what harm? That there's now a McDonalds with the other junk food offers?

	12-06-2003 23:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well, what harm? That there's now a McDonalds with the other junk food offers?

i was talking more in terms of indigenous cultural expression.

	12-06-2003 23:15									#33
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you mean trashing a mcdonalds isnt indigenous cultural expression in europe?

	12-06-2003 23:16									#34
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Like what, exactly, PattyCakes? Give me an example of something that's being destroyed?

So....gimmie an example of how "American culture" is wrecking another.

And the bolded phrase makes perfect sense. If American culture is an conglomeration of all the cultures that define it, then it stands to reason that they're closely intertwined. if one destroyed the other on contact, as it were, then such a union would never have been possible in the first place.

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:17									#35
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Hersh :

I mean, "going out for American" is something obvious in America. It's so obvious that people don't mention they go to an American restaurant, but to what kind of restaurant. They don't do such a distinction for Chinese restaurants. By the same token, people in China don't say "let's go out for Chinese", because Chinese culture is omnipresent there.

The day when the Americans consider "American" restaurants as some standardised, interchangeable thing, while they'll make the difference between Chinese chicken-restaurants, Chinese pork-restaurants, Chinese seafood-restaurant and Chinese fastfood (to the point it becomes pointless to say the word "Chinese" anymore), is the day where American food will lose the cultural upper hand, at least when it comes to cuisine.

	12-06-2003 23:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 you mean trashing a mcdonalds isnt indigenous cultural expression in europe?

It's just a french past time, like boule.

	12-06-2003 23:18									#37
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example: australia: overwelhmed by american films on TV in the past.

local production virtually grinded to a halt.


restrictive measures taken, indigenous production started to flourish again.

as to why this is better than just imports, its a bit too long to explain but it has to do with expressional tools and local realities.


its not so much a danger for countries like the continental europe but there is a negative effect.

	12-06-2003 23:18									#38
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America is an overful cultural crapper and I can't find the flush.

	12-06-2003 23:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 you mean trashing a mcdonalds isnt indigenous cultural expression in europe?

unless antiamericanism is anintegral part of ones cultural identity, no.

	12-06-2003 23:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Hersh : I mean, "going out for American" is something obvious in America. It's so obvious that people don't mention they go to an American restaurant, but to what kind of restaurant.

I've never heard "Let's go out for austrian". Do you say "Let's go out for french"?

	12-06-2003 23:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 you mean trashing a mcdonalds isnt indigenous cultural expression in europe?

I sure hopes it becomes so

	12-06-2003 23:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And the bolded phrase makes perfect sense. If American culture is an conglomeration of all the cultures that define it, then it stands to reason that they're closely intertwined. if one destroyed the other on contact, as it were, then such a union would never have been possible in the first place. -=Vel=-

that doesn make sense either.

	12-06-2003 23:23									#43
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What you're talking about is economic protectionism, pure and simple. It has nothing to do with cultural preservation. The same thing has been seen in EVERY major industry in the economy. Cars, electronics, beef....the works.

If there's a market for locally produced Aussie TV and movies, then it'll flourish anyway. If you have to ban imports to MAKE it flourish, then maybe it doesn't need to flourish in the first place? (I mean, if it can't stand up to the competition, then why should it flourish?)

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I've never heard "Let's go out for austrian". Do you say "Let's go out for french"?

Nope, but I would probably say so if I was living in the US (actually no, I heard French restaurants in the US suck bigtime )

But I have heard it when it came to movies.

Besides, I'm currently living in Germany, and I always say "let's go eat a Döner" or "let's go eat a Pide". The few times I go to eat German food, I say "Let's go out for German", or "Let's go out for Schwäbisch".
To me, Turkish joints are the main perk of Stuttgart's cuisine... I'm sure that wouldn't really please the locals

	12-06-2003 23:26									#45
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versomething,

american programs are cheaper, so TV stations prefered them over local ones.


protectionism is proven to lead to a pick up of modern expressional media production in many places of the world.


cant have open markets when everything you get is american (australia in case but also other countries)

	12-06-2003 23:28									#46
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the price of the programming isn't the only factor in the equation, bud. TV stations have to pander to the *audience*. If the audience doesn't wanna watch the "cheaper" American TV shows, they won't.

They don't watch, the station loses revenues, and begins looking for an alternative to their current lineup.

That's the way it works.

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:34									#47
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not really if they dont have a choice. theyll watch what they can get.


and the problem with american mass cultural products is that they are reduced to the least common ground and are not indigenous.

as for the usefulness of indigenous cultural expression, thats a long topic for which I have given somehints.

	12-06-2003 23:38									#48
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IF that's how it is in your country (for example), that people just "take what they can get", then it can rightly be said that the indigenous population is responsible for the death of their own local expression.

If you don't actively support it, of course it won't flourish.

Of course, it's much more convenient to simply have it government mandated, I am sure. Less effort on your part.

But it's still protectionism.

If you like the local stuff, support it! If there are enough of you, then some enterprising fellow will start up his own TV station that caters to your wishes.

To do less seems....whiney?

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:39									#49
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PS: And "indigenous" does not automatically mean "better."

The Yugo was indegnous to someplace.

That didn't make it a good car.

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:40									#50
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Spiffor, I hope you took the chance to get handmade Spätzle. Homemade just isn't enough (which means they use a machine they have in house). The difference is worth the price, IMO.

PS: I like that you don't mention the "thousand" in your location. It quite well characterises most towns in the region (Tübingen is horrible if you live there, but nice for a trip)

	12-06-2003 23:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx What you're talking about is economic protectionism, pure and simple. It has nothing to do with cultural preservation. The same thing has been seen in EVERY major industry in the economy. Cars, electronics, beef....the works.

Cultural protectionism exists thanks to several measures (including economic protectionism), but its purpose isn't economic in nature, unlike protectionism on cars or on beef. Culture is extremely intertwined with the idea of national cohesion. If the culture collapses, or gets replaced / overwhelmed, the feeling of community that supports the whole national cohesion suffers. It is not that bad in countries where the feeling of community is tied with ethnicity, but it is extremely bad in countries where the ethnicity is less clear.
To these countries, cultural protectionism is not an option when the local culture is threatened.

quote: If there's a market for locally produced Aussie TV and movies, then it'll flourish anyway. If you have to ban imports to MAKE it flourish, then maybe it doesn't need to flourish in the first place? (I mean, if it can't stand up to the competition, then why should it flourish?)

This is a common misconception that assumes that the market is "perfect", in the meaning that it will always find the best opportunities to make money, and will always supply to meet any demand, whether manifest or latent.
This idea is wrong. The audiovisual industries are especially conservative and will nearly always try to make a product which "works", because otherwise, it is millions that are wasted.

This conservatism makes these industries unaware of a potential big demand for local products. These people are human after all, and are concerned with not losing their job by financing a floppy movie or disc.

The best example that I know of is the radical change of the French music scene during the 90's. Between 1993 and 1995, a law has been passed in France, that forces radio stations to air 40% of French music (half being new artists) and 20% of Other European music.
Of course, the radio stations were unhappy, and thought they would lose clients. But they did abide by the law, and much to their surprise, the French bands they agreed to air were appreciated by the general public . Disc companies made money with French artists, and the French music scene turned from being a boring rerun of the 70's into an original, varied and talented bunch in a matter of years.
These laws were like a rain in the desert : they have allowed a whole vegatation to srpout seemingly out of nowhere

No, the market isn't perfect, and if the audiovisual companies decide to stick with something they know profitable, the latent demand won't be satisfied.

	12-06-2003 23:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx IF that's how it is in your country (for example), that people just "take what they can get", then it can rightly be said that the indigenous population is responsible for the death of their own local expression. If you don't actively support it, of course it won't flourish. Of course, it's much more convenient to simply have it government mandated, I am sure. Less effort on your part. But it's still protectionism. If you like the local stuff, support it! If there are enough of you, then some enterprising fellow will start up his own TV station that caters to your wishes. To do less seems....whiney? -=Vel=-

greece never had such problems but it doesnt hurt to look ahead or around does it?


things simply dont work the way you say in free economies.

when the mass media outlets are in the hands of the few (such as the US) the playing field is by definition not even both in the matter of pricing as well as "penetration" of the market. that constitutes unfair advantage and needs protection against since as is proven it leads to higher indigenous production, (which is by definition better for reasons laready explained).


oh and culture is not a car.

	12-06-2003 23:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I've never heard "Let's go out for austrian".

That's because you're all Germans.

	12-06-2003 23:47									#54
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spiffor,
yes the frenchexample is also a good one, but untill this new musical generation to emerge you had to suffer sme time under horrendous french pop

	12-06-2003 23:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Spiffor, I hope you took the chance to get handmade Spätzle. Homemade just isn't enough (which means they use a machine they have in house). The difference is worth the price, IMO. PS: I like that you don't mention the "thousand" in your location. It quite well characterises most towns in the region (Tübingen is horrible if you live there, but nice for a trip)

Actually, my location field is a googlism. I wanted to give the link in my loc., but the forum wouldn't allow me

And yes, handmade Kässpätzle are my absolute favourite Schwäbisch speciality. It rocks ! (I eve appreciate industrial Kässpätzle)

And I went to Tübingen for one day. It is great for a trip, and everybody around me complained that we got to study in Stuttgart. I think we'd all quickly get tired of Tübingen's beauty if we lived there though.

	12-06-2003 23:50									#56
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i disagree with spiffor on one point about national cohesion. actually it has more to do with indigenous cultural tools that are in a position to accomodate the varied and subtle intricacies of the realitites of a specific peoples and land. mass culture producst are unable to do that.

	12-06-2003 23:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 spiffor, yes the frenchexample is also a good one, but untill this new musical generation to emerge you had to suffer sme time under horrendous french pop

Indeed, and there are still some sucky things today in the French pop (like Alizée, who definitely sucks, even though you like her ). But in a few years, excellent artists became part of the mainstream radio, like Matmatah, Louise Attaque, Mano Negra, Noir Désir, Paris Combo, the currently emerging new generation of parolists like Vincent Delerm, etc.
I don't even talk about the extremely dynamic French rap & HipHop scene, which makes American rap almost unknown here (since rap is word-heavy, I think this trend didn't need the law though).

Compare that to Téléphone, which was our only decent band in the 80's, and you'll see what I mean with the incredible flourishing French music experienced thanks to the law. And it sells.

	12-06-2003 23:54									#58
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Neither is TV, Patty Cakes. Neither is TV.

-=Vel=-

	12-06-2003 23:56									#59
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Alizee (ok I KNOW I'M PATHETIC )


apart from other things, hip hop has a similar course in greece as well making maerican hiphop unknown ad created another new manierism of cultural expression mainly for the young generation. (and it is much more romantic/nostalgic oriented (with a heft dose of subvertive character)- quote different than the french type )

	12-06-2003 23:56									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's because you're all Germans.

Maybe, but we'd never admit it.