 |
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
Tell me about it St Leo! All of the best hunting grounds are gone! The rivers are no good for fishing, the herds of bison are no more. The forests, such as they are, are devoid of bear, and deer. How are we supposed to raise the kids in the old ways? No wonder they squander their lives away on firwe water.
Bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zylka
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Exactly right, Spiffor. French bands have a beautiful thing called "comparative advantage." They can make the kinds of music that American bands either can't or won't make (ie - French music). If there's a market for it, it will thrive *without* government intervention.
If there's no market for it or if there's a general state of ambivelence toward it....it won't (and didn't, prior to a federally mandated decree that it should).
Not a lot of mystery to it.
-=Vel=- |
Interesting that this same bullsh*t goes on elsewhere. The federal radio laws CANCORD (or something) demand that 30% of all programming be of Canadian content. Even doing a radio show at the low level University station, we had to worry about this quota or risk legal action - Whose brainchild was this?!
Try mixing a techno show on Canadian staples. If I had complied, all of my "Max Graham" records would be worn polished by now
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Zylka
|
|
That is exactly what needs to be understood, that if a local style is actually important to the culture - it will thrive. Forcing broadcast to be a certain percentage of homegrown talent not only promotes mediocrity, it's blatant censorship.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HershOstropoler
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Not exactly. Radio stations played cheap tunes that they expected the people wanted to hear. The figures of the actual sales, now that the playing field has been evened (40% French music minimum on radio, 60% USUK maximum), show that the people didn't necessarily wanted to hear US music all day long. |
I wonder, when this law was introduced, how was the radio business regulated? How many stations were licensed, how many are now?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
and as i said before preexisting cultural proximity in key elements (such as language) increases the vulnerability of coutnries (hence australia but also others)
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
 |
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Exactly right, Spiffor. French bands have a beautiful thing called "comparative advantage." They can make the kinds of music that American bands either can't or won't make (ie - French music). If there's a market for it, it will thrive *without* government intervention. |
Fact is, there is a market for it.
Maybe your analysis in terms of "pure and perfect competition" and things like that are unaware of a few things in the French radio :
1. The amount of radios is limited. To create a new radio, it is a bureacratic hell, as the Conseil de Surveillance de l'Audiovisuel (CSA) must first allow them and give them their frequency (9 months max.). As such many "spontaneous" university or associative radios simply do not exist because of the bureacratic hell. I agree that it sucks.
2. Some big radio stations are then extremely generalist, to be catch-all radios (Information, music, humour, all on the same station), some specialize in one form of music to corner a monopoly or semi-monopoly on this market. A few are old stations made for political propaganda and aren't listened to.
That's why commercial radios hold the music broadcasting scene in France. You cannot expect a competition to rise suddenly.
3. The problem with the music industry is that it rests for a big part on public passivity. As long as the music broadcasted on a station is good enough, the listeners don't strive for better, mainly because radio listeners aren't all music lovers (otherwise, how could you explain the success of the Spice Girls ?  ).
That's why, even if there could have been radio stations specializing in French music (I don't know), nobody would have bothered looking for them, as long as their usual radio station aired tolerable music. Besides, in order to be profitable, such a radio would have to air well known French music, i.e the hits of the 60's and 70's.
The half assed and cheap music broadcasted on the radio becomes part of the everyday culture and socialization, to the point that the young generation, in 1994 when the law was passed, couldn't imagine to enjoy French music except for a very very few hits. This belief was extremely dangerous, as it theatened French music as a whole long term.
Curiously enough, the young generation in 2003 has no problems listening to Lorie or Priscilla (it is the same crap for pre-teenagers, but at least it is OUR crap  )
4. You can believe all you want that demand will always meet supply. In the French radio scene, it was simply not the case. If it can help you feeling good, tell it is because of the problems by creating a new station / competitor (even though it has mostly to do with customer passivity). The law has evened the playfield. I went to see the specifics, and they're like it :
- radios which are emphasizing "musical heritage" must air 60% of French speaking tunes, including 10% of new products (among which old stars' new albums)
- radios specialized in "promoting new talents" must air 35% of French speaking tunes, including 25% of new products.
Since current French-speaking music is now more appreciated than English-speaking music, I guess the law has just helped demand to meet the supply. Yes, it may not be the best. Yes, it is sad that the obvious demand for other-language-tunes cannot meet a supply (a law for that would maybe be needed ?  ).
But it's a good thing already that the flaws of the market concerning French music are gone. The Swiss are looking at our quotas with envy. I sure hope they copy the idea 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
gunkulator
|
|
quote:
- radios which are emphasizing "musical heritage" must air 60% of French speaking tunes, including 10% of new products (among which old stars' new albums)
- radios specialized in "promoting new talents" must air 35% of French speaking tunes, including 25% of new products |
Culture via govenment regulation? To this American, it just seems so bizarre.
If a song has one verse in English and one in French, does that count as French? Do instrumentals count as French songs or do the muscians have to be French speaking? Does a 2 minute French song count the same as Jethro Tull's 45 minute Thick As A Brick megasong? Rap songs typically have 3 or 4 times are many lyrics as other songs so do you get more credit for them? What about a song sung in Breton?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by gunkulator
Culture via govenment regulation? To this American, it just seems so bizarre.
If a song has one verse in English and one in French, does that count as French? Do instrumentals count as French songs or do the muscians have to be French speaking? Does a 2 minute French song count the same as Jethro Tull's 45 minute Thick As A Brick megasong? Rap songs typically have 3 or 4 times are many lyrics as other songs so do you get more credit for them? |
No Idea. I'll try to find the complete law, to know what it says about it.
Edit : the law is unclear about it. I guess it's Lawyer Fodder. However, the law speaks about "Chansons d'expression Française", which means the law is solely about language. As such, Big Soul's Le Brio (American band, but the song features only French words) can be aired as a French song.
quote:
What about a song sung in Breton? |
The quota apply to regional languages spoken in France. A Breton-only station isn't forced to air any French-speaking or Corsican-speaking music.
Last edited by Spiffor on 13-06-2003 at 18:20
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
As an artist, I can say this....I would NOT have gotten as far as I have, nor would my work be at the level it is now had I been coddled by the government. |
Indeed. If you had been coddled by the gov. as an individual, you sure wouldn't have bothered doing well. If you had been coddled by a corporation who asked you to do an easy-read that has no artistic value but will sell, it would have been the same too.
quote:
My work got to the point that it is today because I busted my a$$ and kept improving it.
Why? Because the competition is tough out there! If I don't, my books don't sell. I have to practice constantly, read everything I can get my hands on to see what the competition is up to, and consider every word carefully.
Would I have to do that if I knew that Walden Books HAD to reserve at least one shelf for my books? Nope. I could just write any old crap and watch the sales come in. |
There's the misunderstanding. Under the law, Walden Books wouldn't have to reserve a shelf for YOUR books. Just for a certain category of books you belong to that happened to be disdaines by bookshops.
The new opportunities in this field, now that the public is aware of your category of books, has made plenty of new authors enter the game, and you end up with a big competition to make it to this very shelf. Of course, artists coddled by the syndicate -with a big marketing machine behind them- continue to take the lion's share, but your category of books has now hit the spotlight, and the public is now aware there is something good out there.
But to compete with the many "regular" authors to get to this shelf, you still have to improve your work.
quote:
Of course, since I take pride in my work, I'd make sure it was the best I could make it, but there'd be no competitive force at work to *push* me to excel....so I wouldn't.
I'd just do the best I'm capable of right now and not worry about growing my talents.
Why should I? Bookstores have to buy it anyway. |
Nope, bookstores have to buy books from your category, in which a new competition has wildly started, not YOUR books. Plus, now that your category of books has hit the spotlight, you cannot count on a "captive market" which, despite being small, will buy your books because of the semi-monopoly in the category. Competition happens to be harder now.
EDIT : I just realized a terrible lack of clarity : I wanted to twist your image by translating what happened to the French music scene into it. I don't know rat's about the specifics of the book scene in America. Read this post as a "this is what happened"
Last edited by Spiffor on 13-06-2003 at 18:38
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
 |
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
|
|
Mornin' Spiff! 
I'll take your points as you presented them:
1. The amount of radios is limited....
Same thing in the States. Only so many frequencies, only so many stations you can have without creating overlap. This still need not present enormous problems, given the rise of 'net radio (which is not regulated at all). If campuses are not taking advantage of this (in light of the oppressive regulations you mentioned), I am utterly mystified why not (especially if, as you say, French music is so culturally vital).
2. Some big radio stations are then extremely generalist....
Again, same here (minus the "propaganda only" stations. If we ever had these, they vanished a long time ago. Most all our radio stations generalize around one broad "type" of music. "light rock" "classic rock" "country" etc. And yet, the competition here is fierce. There's plenty of room in the frequency range for LOTS of competition, so if competition is lacking in France, then there MUST be some other force at work, keeping it at bay. I assure you that it's not a technological issue. The frequencies are there.
3. The problem with the music industry is that it rests for a big part on public passivity.
Not true in this country, and I'd be very surprised if it was true anywhere. Unlike other products/services that can build "brand loyalty," loyalty to something as intangible as a radio broadcast is nigh on impossible to achieve (excepting for certain talk shows....I'm talking about music-driven stations here). If they're playing opera on the radio, and I don't want to listen to opera, I'm changing the channel. And why not? The music I WANT is only a flick of the wrist away, and if it's not, I'll start complaining about it, and I'm not alone. Enough people start complaining about it, an enterprising local will recognize an unfilled market, and start up a new station that plays what's currently missing from the scene and being demanded.
And (again, assuming the demand is there), he'll get his following. (and as to the Spice Girls....thankfully, they seem to have had their fifteen minutes of fame, but I see your point....and I would say that most of their success came from marketing--rather like Microsoft in that regard, right Asher?  )
4. You can believe all you want that demand will always meet supply.
Actually, it's supply that meets demand. If there's an existing demand for something, *someone* will move in and fill it.
If there's a sense of apathy for it, then either someone isn't doing enough marketing, or the demand just isn't there.
The current Top 50 listings don't really prove your point though. I could just as easily say that the only reason those songs are IN the top fifty is because radio stations have no choice but to play them. In that, I would be correct.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
|
|
Yes, there's competition for the "free slots" on the airwaves, but it's like sailing in a protected harbor. The REAL competion is out on the open sea, but the French artists no longer have to worry about that, so they're in their own little "clique", and sure, there's competiton for that, but with the margins you listed, there's MORE than enough room for most anyone to get decent air time.
And with a significanly smaller pool of "competition", jockying for what amouts to free air slots, there's certainly not as great a drive to compete.
You don't have to be the best, you just have to be good enough to get heard (which is not hard under the conditions you outlined)....and it would be the same in my bookshelf example. I wouldn't have to be awesome....mediocre would do fine. I'd still get my books on the shelf.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Mornin' Spiff! |
Afternoon' Vel 
I'll take your points as you presented them:
1. The amount of radios is limited....
Same thing in the States. Only so many frequencies, only so many stations you can have without creating overlap. This still need not present enormous problems, given the rise of 'net radio (which is not regulated at all). If campuses are not taking advantage of this (in light of the oppressive regulations you mentioned), I am utterly mystified why not (especially if, as you say, French music is so culturally vital).[/quote]
Well, thinking of French music as culturally vital wasn't something mainstream at the time French music was a boring outfashioned mess, i.e at the beginning of the 90's. At least among young people. Besides, I am not aware of Campus radios over here.
quote:
2. Some big radio stations are then extremely generalist....
Again, same here (minus the "propaganda only" stations. If we ever had these, they vanished a long time ago. Most all our radio stations generalize around one broad "type" of music. "light rock" "classic rock" "country" etc. And yet, the competition here is fierce. There's plenty of room in the frequency range for LOTS of competition, so if competition is lacking in France, then there MUST be some other force at work, keeping it at bay. I assure you that it's not a technological issue. The frequencies are there. |
Indeed, the bureacuratic hell makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for "spontaneous" radios to appear. In general, only radios with a solid project (i.e a commercial, public or political radio) will stand the bureacratic heat. It indeed hampers real competition.
quote:
3. The problem with the music industry is that it rests for a big part on public passivity.
Not true in this country, and I'd be very surprised if it was true anywhere. Unlike other products/services that can build "brand loyalty," loyalty to something as intangible as a radio broadcast is nigh on impossible to achieve (excepting for certain talk shows....I'm talking about music-driven stations here). If they're playing opera on the radio, and I don't want to listen to opera, I'm changing the channel. |
You are taking an extreme case with Opera. Of course every rock fan will change channels if an opera is suddenly airing on their favorite rock station. But will they change channels if they hear Californication instead of Lambé ? (knowing that they aren't even aware of Lambé's existence ecause there has been no marketing for it). The answer is clearly no, except if they feel strongly rejected by Californication
quote:
And why not? The music I WANT is only a flick of the wrist away, and if it's not, I'll start complaining about it, and I'm not alone. Enough people start complaining about it, an enterprising local will recognize an unfilled market, and start up a new station that plays what's currently missing from the scene and being demanded. |
Like many desires, you aren't necessary aware of the music you WANT. Imagine that there is currently an absolutely terrific Nigerian group that has just made its first disc, something you and many others would find marvelous. Unfortunately, you don't know anything about these guy's existence. Will you turn the button until you find their song despite not knowing their existence at all ? Despite them being never aired in the US because there is no marketing ?
quote:
and as to the Spice Girls....thankfully, they seem to have had their fifteen minutes of fame, but I see your point....and I would say that most of their success came from marketing--rather like Microsoft in that regard, right Asher? |
Wow we are completely agreed
Marketing is a huge force in the entertainment business, including the music business. The sad thing with Marketing is that it is done by human beings who look for the easiest money. Why would they bother (and waste money) looking for Nigerians if they can made a hit out of a nothing like Avril Lavigne ?
quote:
4. You can believe all you want that demand will always meet supply.
Actually, it's supply that meets demand. If there's an existing demand for something, *someone* will move in and fill it. |
When the demand is latent rather than manifest, this is less than obvious. Especially since reaching the demand requires to go through the distribution business, which, in the case of music, is held only by a few conservative and unchallenged companies. Getting his chance from these companies is indispensable to achieve success.
quote:
If there's a sense of apathy for it, then either someone isn't doing enough marketing, or the demand just isn't there. |
Bingo, not enough marketing. The artists don't have enough money to do marketing for themselves, and the companies are too busy marketinging their Avril Lavigne of the month.
quote:
The current Top 50 listings don't really prove your point though. I could just as easily say that the only reason those songs are IN the top fifty is because radio stations have no choice but to play them. In that, I would be correct. |
They have a choice. After reading the laws more precisely, I've seen that radios can air up to 65% of American music, i.e nearly twice more than French music. If there was no demand for French music, none of these French songs would be in the Top 50 despite being aired. The people would just enjoy the remaining 65%, and only buy songs from them.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Yes, there's competition for the "free slots" on the airwaves, but it's like sailing in a protected harbor. The REAL competion is out on the open sea, but the French artists no longer have to worry about that, so they're in their own little "clique", and sure, there's competiton for that, but with the margins you listed, there's MORE than enough room for most anyone to get decent air time. |
In this last sentence you are wrong. There has been an incredible boom of French musinc since the law. The analogy with a rain in the sesert isn't exaggerated. Besides, there was a smaller "protected harbor" before, which was the captive market for French music (people who'd listen to French music no matter what), and the competition was nearly non existent within it. It resulted in having the French music scene of the 80's being mostly horrendous, with very few good artists. The boom has made possible an extreme creativity, originality, an qulity. That's something that you'd think coming from a free competition. That's something that didn't happen when the competition was "free" (i.e in the hands of unchecked corporations).
quote:
You don't have to be the best, you just have to be good enough to get heard (which is not hard under the conditions you outlined).... |
It depends of the amount of new competitors. In the case of French music, the number of artists entering the scene is mindboggling. I agree that, for "heritage" radios and their 60% of French music, the competition can look quite easy (don't forget they however take the most successful French songs spanning on decades), but for the "new talents" radios, the 35% niche is far from being enough to let mediocre artists being aired. Except for mediocre artists backed by music corporations of course.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
|
|
Yep. I "spin the dial" if I'm unhappy with the song currently playing on my favorite radio station. Of course, my favorite radio station plays awesome music, so it doesn't happen often, but when it does, I'm quick to go hunting.
Sometimes (often), I'm not even sure what I'm hunting for, but I'll know it when I hear it.
I assume it's the same for folks where you are.
The solution to the problem would seem to be, rather than mandating X% of french music, to make it easier to start up radio stations. Then, if there is any sort of "latent demand," it can still be met by enterprising folks who (now that the demand exists) can play to it. In no case is the optimal solution to force a state mandate of the issue. 35-60% of airtime slots is an ENORMOUS amount of slots. Given the French population, and comparing it to that number of airtime slots, I would imagine that *I* could record some (very bad, most likely) French music and get it played for the curiosity factor if nothing else!
The fact is that, even with this "blossoming" of French music, the pool of competition is VASTLY restricted compared to the competion that everybody else faces. It's still very much the protected harbor with not nearly as many boats on it, but why go sailing out in the wild blue, when the government guarantees you'll always have the harbor?
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
|
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep. I "spin the dial" if I'm unhappy with the song currently playing on my favorite radio station. Of course, my favorite radio station plays awesome music, so it doesn't happen often, but when it does, I'm quick to go hunting.
Sometimes (often), I'm not even sure what I'm hunting for, but I'll know it when I hear it. |
Yes, when you hear it. That's precisely the problem with having a big chunk of music not aired at all because the radio companies prefer easy cash.
quote:
The solution to the problem would seem to be, rather than mandating X% of french music, to make it easier to start up radio stations. |
Agreed, this would be one of the solutions. Besides, I think the French music scene is now appreciated enough to begin getting rid of the law, if only to see if it can continue autonomously.
quote:
In no case is the optimal solution to force a state mandate of the issue. 35-60% of airtime slots is an ENORMOUS amount of slots. Given the French population, and comparing it to that number of airtime slots, I would imagine that *I* could record some (very bad, most likely) French music and get it played for the curiosity factor if nothing else! |
Go ahead and try it . You wouldn't be the only one. Chances are you actually get aired for the curiosity factor, because Yanks singing in French aren't that common. If the music is crap, there is little chance it stays long on the waves though.
quote:
The fact is that, even with this "blossoming" of French music, the pool of competition is VASTLY restricted compared to the competion that everybody else faces. It's still very much the protected harbor with not nearly as many boats on it, but why go sailing out in the wild blue, when the government guarantees you'll always have the harbor? |
Tell me of one local music, anywhere in the world, that exports and that is not English speaking. English-speaking music is the only music that gets exported on a large scale worldwide. Sure, people around the world can listen to Bjork, to Rammstein or to the Macarena. But they are mere exceptions in an outrageously English-dominated world market. That's because corporations believe that only local or English-speaking products will sell, except for the occasional non-English wonder.
Does it mean only the English-speaking music is good ? I don't think so.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
|
|
"When you hear it"
Exactly. Thus, if the problem is that the music is not being heard, then the solution is to make it easier to start new radio stations, so that enterprising Frenchmen can fill the musical demand. Result: More music on the airwaves.
The second part of that would be to more aggressively market the music by new groups. This is not a state function. It is a function of the music-makers and their managers, and it's easy to do guerella marketing. I should know, it's how I've marketed my own work!
The export question:
I agree that English music is more widely exported, but that's a different issue. We're talking about the problem of the local music scene competing with the imports on their own turf. To export, I agree, it requires a significantly larger marketing budget, but to play to the home crowd, all it takes is talent and determination....you don't need much of a marketing "budget" at all to sell French music to Frenchmen, if the demand is there.
And keep in mind, radio stations do not make their profits from playing certain songs (though they may get kickbacks from recording labels now and again for pushing certain artists, the bulk of their money comes from ad revenues, which are based on audience size....thus, playing "cheap songs for easy money" is an anomoly. What MUST happen in the radio business is that they play the songs their listeners WANT, else the audience size shrinks, taking the ad revenues along with it.
The hypothetical Nigerian band mentioned earlier. It would NOT be outrageous to envision a radio station devoted to "hard to find" music (we have at least three in South Carolina, which is one of the MOST conservative states in the Union), which would, no doubt, feature them. Again, the problem is in the difficulty of starting new stations in your country, and that is also where the solution lies (well that, and activism on the part of the public where their music is concerned).
As to my stuff....it's just a bare bones page for the moment, but I've got my three books up on:
http://www.cdhartpence.com
"SMAX Guide"
"Guardians"
and
"Five Days in May"
The last two are horror novels, in the same vein as King/Koontz stories (at least if the reviewer is to be believed... )
And the music! I shall check them out! It's long past time to make a trip to the music shop anyways, so thank ya for the tips! I'll give them a listen!
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28.
Apolyton Time is 00:28. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
13-06-2003 08:20
The sight still shocks me.
|