13-06-2003 01:37									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Same old arguement. You'll never convince him, Vel. He honestly believes in American Cultural Imperialism (tm). Me, I'm starting to think it's just an ethnocentrist mindset (racist, even?) that demands that the things in France be "French." If something isn't, it upsets him. Though he's much more eloquent and thoughtful, I'm not sure his mindset is all that much different from Boddington's (those damn furriners are screwing up our country!).

I must not have been clear last time we talked about it Arrian.

1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard. I may have political flaws, but ethnocentrism isn't one of those. If I was ethnocentrist, would I live in Germany ? Would I come to these boards to talk with Americans directly and actually have my point of view challenged ? Would I use Feta cheese, Olive oil and Chinese noodles in my diet on a nearly daily basis ? Would I regret that there is nearly no Spanish-speaking, German-speaking, or Chinese-speaking music airing on French radios ? Would I be interested and excited in foreign cutures ? Would have I enjoyed Arabic singer Khaled ? Would I have begun learning Japanese ? NO.

Fact is, I sincerely believe that cultural exchange is enriching, even though I think national cultures should keep safe some core elements of their culture. Better yet, I even strive for cultural exchange in my daily life. That's the whole meaning of studying in Germany or browsing 'Poly for me.

2. I oppose the American overwhelming flow of culture. It doesn't mean that I oppose the American culture as a whole. I merely oppose its commercial agressivity which tries (It has begun to change significantly though) to corner the whole cultural market, i.e to get a monopoly on cultural goods. No big conspiracy, those are just mass-entertainment companies which try to make the most money with the cheapest costs.

This doesn't make me an enemy of American culture. I enjoy Jazz, despite it being American, I enjoyed Matrix, Seinfeld and Friends, I enjoy playing the US/UK version of Civ3 and PtW, and I intend to buy GalCiv in the next days.

I am an enemy of the overwhelmingness of some parts of the American culture. It is a very different thing.

3. To me "American cultural imperialism" means that there is a determined policy in Washington to help spreading the American culture as much as possible, as well as a mindset present in many Americans, including big fishes in the cultural industries, that the American Way of Life is genuinely better and should be spread to the world (see DD's nationalism thread).
Again, no big conspiracy.

4. Actually, my hatred against this imperialism comes from the fact that I am not ethnocentrist. I fear that American mass-entertainment crap will considerably level the cultures of the world, and not for the better. Crappy domestic mass-entertainment products are not inherently better than American ones, far from it. But they are domestic and do not threaten the uniqueness of the local culture.

Edit : added link

	13-06-2003 01:40									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor 1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard.

You may or may not be an ethnocentrist. However that seems to be the entire basis for the law in question.

	13-06-2003 01:50									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You may or may not be an ethnocentrist. However that seems to be the entire basis for the law in question.

The law would have been ethnocentrist if the French scene was well represented in the radio stations, OR if the French public wouldn't have been interested in French music.
It would have also been ethnocentrist if there was a representative cultural variety on radio (actually, the 20% European music clause calls for more cultural variety, even if it has been used nearly solely to air British groups).

The intend of the law was clearly to fight against the overwhelmingness of American culture. No other culture suffered from this law in France, simply because the American culture was the only foreign culture we were permanently exposed to in the mass-media.

I don't see anything ethnocentric in defending its culture against something overwhelming. Ethnocentricism, in my definition, is to think only within the frame of one's own culture without making any effort to try thinking within another cultural frame, and without bothering looking at other cultures.

This definition of ethnocentricism is widely different from attempting to defend one's own culture from being overwhelmed.

	13-06-2003 01:52									#94
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I think that if a culture is so weak it cannot stand up to simple economic forces, then it should be relegated to a museum and admired as something that was.

If the culture is strong and vibrant, then it will shine all the more brightly next to the watered down variants offered, and if not....why should we pass laws to support it. If the people who DEFINED the culture in the first place have so little interest in it, then why the need for the law?

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 01:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I think that if a culture is so weak it cannot stand up to simple economic forces, then it should be relegated to a museum and admired as something that was.

I think that if economic forces are harming a culture, especially by messing with the cultural education of children, this culture should be protected.

quote: If the culture is strong and vibrant, then it will shine all the more brightly next to the watered down variants offered, and if not....why should we pass laws to support it. If the people who DEFINED the culture in the first place have so little interest in it, then why the need for the law?

If the culture depends of an economic logic, the decisions of a few corporations will make it either "shining and vibrant", or dead. I'm one of those who think culture is a matter way too important to let some corporations be responsible of it.

	13-06-2003 02:01									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think that if economic forces are harming a culture, especially by messing with the cultural education of children,

Why are you blaming outside forces for what is an internal failiure of the Fifth Republic?

	13-06-2003 02:01									#97
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But you see....it's not the companies who are doing the damage!

You said yourself that it was not mainstream in France to support the local music scene.

What this means then, is that French consumers (the people who buy the music) can't be arsed to show much interest in local bands. French radio stations (which before the law forced them to play local music) were playing what people wanted to hear. Since nobody could be arsed to give local bands a listen, nobody did, and the radio stations pandered to that, playing what they DID want to listen to.

So the people who were damaging the "french music culture" were....The French! By not caring enough to give their home grown bands a listen until they were told to by Big Brother.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 02:05									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why are you blaming outside forces for what is an internal failiure of the Fifth Republic?

This would be an internal failure if the Republic didn't take steps about it. That's precisely why I support those steps.

	13-06-2003 02:05									#99
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Spiff,

I exaggerated a bit for effect, I admit (the Bods reference). I almost added a smiley or two, but I wanted to see your reaction.

However,

quote: 1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard. I may have political flaws, but ethnocentrism isn't one of those. If I was ethnocentrist, would I live in Germany ? Would I come to these boards to talk with Americans directly and actually have my point of view challenged ? Would I use Feta cheese, Olive oil and Chinese noodles in my diet on a nearly daily basis ? Would I regret that there is nearly no Spanish-speaking, German-speaking, or Chinese-speaking music airing on French radios ? Would I be interested and excited in foreign cutures ? Would have I enjoyed Arabic singer Khaled ? Would I have begun learning Japanese ? NO. Fact is, I sincerely believe that cultural exchange is enriching, even though I think national cultures should keep safe some core elements of their culture. Better yet, I even strive for cultural exchange in my daily life. That's the whole meaning of studying in Germany or browsing 'Poly for me.

Yet you still want your culture to be dominant within its original country (France). Sampling other cultures is all well and good, but if the other cultures start to really mix with yours (or worse, replace it!), it's not cool anymore, right?

If more people felt the way you did, American products (which I think you mistake for "culture") wouldn't sell as well, and thus wouldn't "overwhelm" the local ones.

Whatever, like I said, I'm not gonna convince you.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 02:07									#100
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Every popular group in the US, was at one time unknown and wasn't heard on the radio. There are thousands of bands that stayed that way. Talant and hard work is never a guarentee of sucess but they sure help. A little luck is always needed. You needed an agent that would pander to the DJs and promotors vices. But once you got a break you needed to replicate sucess. And that took hard work and talant. Look at all the one hit wonders that couldn't replicate.

But if the French local bands can't compete, then I guess they need a law. Your lose.

RAH

	13-06-2003 02:11									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This would be an internal failure if the Republic didn't take steps about it.

They didn't. They pulled out the jackboots to start with and avoided thinking about more effective measures. Of course considering how lazy the French apparently are based on your description it shouldn't be much of a shocker.

	13-06-2003 02:18									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx But you see....it's not the companies who are doing the damage! You said yourself that it was not mainstream in France to support the local music scene.

There might be a language misunderstanding. I thought that, by "local music scene", you mean the music scene of town X, the one that is played in the few concert-bars hosting young artists. Indeed, this form of music isn't wide in France.

quote: What this means then, is that French consumers (the people who buy the music) can't be arsed to show much interest in local bands. French radio stations (which before the law forced them to play local music) were playing what people wanted to hear.

Not exactly. Radio stations played cheap tunes that they expected the people wanted to hear. The figures of the actual sales, now that the playing field has been evened (40% French music minimum on radio, 60% USUK maximum), show that the people didn't necessarily wanted to hear US music all day long. However, it is true the usual radio-listener couldn't be arsed to look for music by himself. It may have to do with almost every known French artist of that time being outfashioned or sucky. It doesn't give an incentive to go explore on one's own. It is possible that the French music scene is now good enough to do without the law. I'll check if it's still in action.

quote: Since nobody could be arsed to give local bands a listen, nobody did, and the radio stations pandered to that, playing what they DID want to listen to.

The bulk of listeners were passive indeed. It doesn't mean that radios aired what the public really wished. Maybe because the public was unaware of the quality out there.
I know it is bad to be passive. But is there any one country where mass-entertainment doesn't make profit on public passivity ? Again, how many copies of crappy products like EnterThematrix. How many copies of the Spice Girls ? Do you think the crappy products sold this way appeal to the genuine tastes of the customer, or do they rather appeal to them tagging along ?
If the public is more active in the US, then thumbs up to that.

quote: So the people who were damaging the "french music culture" were....The French! By not caring enough to give their home grown bands a listen until they were told to by Big Brother.

The French were passively assisting to the damage done to their culture, and the Youth wasn't even aware that French culture could be more than Granddad's thing.
Luckily, it has changed

	13-06-2003 02:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I exaggerated a bit for effect, I admit (the Bods reference). I almost added a smiley or two, but I wanted to see your reaction.

Well, I feared looking like Bodd's for a bit . That's maybe why I have done a thorought explanation

quote: Yet you still want your culture to be dominant within its original country (France). Sampling other cultures is all well and good, but if the other cultures start to really mix with yours (or worse, replace it!), it's not cool anymore, right?

Absolutely. I fail to see anything wrong with that. Naturally, I wish all countries in the world would feel that way. Culture is an important thing, and cultural diversity is what makes mankind so interesting. I would hate seeing cultures die. Mine or others.

	13-06-2003 02:35									#104
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The trouble is, Spiff, you can't have it both ways.

Borders are amorphous things. Ideas and information will flow across them, no matter what you do. The moment you begin experiencing other cultures, you mix them (in yourself, in others you share your experiences with).

Culture is made up and defined by the people of your national group. The only way to perfectly preserve it is to never go anywhere (so you're not exposed to the influences of other cultures, and then bring this "infection" back to the Mother country), and only learn of other cultures by passively reading about them.

That's clearly not what you are advocating by your own actions, but it's equally clear it's what you (say you) want. Cultural preservation.

Can't have it both ways.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 02:35									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They didn't. They pulled out the jackboots to start with and avoided thinking about more effective measures. Of course considering how lazy the French apparently are based on your description it shouldn't be much of a shocker.

It is a century-old French tradition to expect public action from the State rather than from oneself. It may be sad, but it's so. It explains why The State often takes action in circumstances that you'd deem to be the domain of the individuals.

	13-06-2003 02:37									#106
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and that, my friend, is a very dangerous "cultural tradition" to hold onto....

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 02:38									#107
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I, as an American, am for preserving French culture. I demand that the French close their boarders and don't let anyone leave or enter, don't communicate with anyone, and by all means keep you smells to yourself... That would be fine by me

	13-06-2003 02:39									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Culture is an important thing, and cultural diversity is what makes mankind so interesting. I would hate seeing cultures die. Mine or others.

Culture exists for man, not man for the culture. The problem with too much diversity is that it encourages segregation which in turn breeds xenophobia. We fear what we do not understand. We gravitate to what makes us comfortable. It is human nature.

The truth is that we are all human. We all have the same emotions, intellect and potential. What makes one man German and another Nigerian is a simple accident of birth. What makes those two men wary and unsure of each is other (and perhaps even hate each other) can be summed in a single word: culture.

Mankind has spent too much time creating arbitrary groupings of people, always with the subtext of hiearchy. Culture is one of the greatest contributing factors to these divisive groupings.

	13-06-2003 02:41									#109
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With regards to your post in reply to mine:

Radio stations need revenues. They GET revenues by getting (and keeping) listeners (advertisers pay them based on the size of their audience). If they play crap music, people will turn to a different station. If they play music people don't want to hear, they will turn to a different station.

Enough people do that, the radio stations will play different music (the music their listeners want to hear), or they will go broke.

But that's not what was happening.

No, not until a federally mandated law came along, did people start listening to local music.

Why?

Because they had no choice. The radio stations simply had to play it, whether you wanted to hear it or not. And of course it sells. Waffle House might not have great food, but it's always packed.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 02:48									#110
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There are suich things as American culture, such as country music, jazz, blues, and a host of regional merican fare. And all of this totally "American" music and culture is as popular oevrseas as Indian music is in the US, ie, not very.

When people speak of "American cultural imperialism", I never imagine they mean their own musical styles innundated with Jazz and blues, but instead about modern marketing.

That is what most people think of when they think "American", not a what but a HOW. Burgers are an American dish, but why do we think McD's? They don;t make the best burger by far, so why are they so big? Becuase of how they sell. The Us excells at the mass marketing of stuff. The US is the leader in advertising and so forth, which is why you do get a flood of US mass market music and video flowing outward. Take movies. US movies have the greatest chunk of the world movie market not becuase we make the "best movies" from an artistic point of view, but becuase the US industry built itself up with mass market films, became rich and huge, and can now afford to have better production values than anyone else, as well as eventually hiring good non American talent to work for the US industry. Few other nations have film industies that could compete, and thos industries focus on fare so directed at a very secific audience that it will most likely fail in other mass markets (like Bollywood movies).

The genius of the US is mass culture is having figured out what appels universally, and perjhaps the only reason we ddi is becuase of the melange that makes up the US.

	13-06-2003 02:55									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The trouble is, Spiff, you can't have it both ways. Borders are amorphous things. Ideas and information will flow across them, no matter what you do. The moment you begin experiencing other cultures, you mix them (in yourself, in others you share your experiences with). Culture is made up and defined by the people of your national group. The only way to perfectly preserve it is to never go anywhere (so you're not exposed to the influences of other cultures, and then bring this "infection" back to the Mother country), and only learn of other cultures by passively reading about them. That's clearly not what you are advocating by your own actions, but it's equally clear it's what you (say you) want. Cultural preservation. Can't have it both ways.

Well, Vel, what you describe is perfect preservation which is indeed irrealistic and stupid anyways. I sure do'nt strive for it. I know that cultural flow cannot be stopped, especially in the information era we're living in.
However, the cultural flow (or rather the cultural spread) can be slowed down in order for the recieving culture to have enough time to assimilate the foreign culture into one's own, and to make the new foreign elements definitely part of the local culture, with a local spin to it.
French rock owes much to American rock, French anime owes much to Japanese anime, French philosophy owes much to Greek philosophy etc. Better yet : French Frog Legs owe everything to Vietnamese Frog Legs
These French things would actually not have existed if thei foreign counterparts didn't exist. And they have been assimilated and made definitely French over time.

However, if the pace of change is too quick, the local culture cannot assimilate the foreign culture into its own and risks of being replaced.

I have no problem with seeing my culture evolve (actually, the good and dynamic music scene is a recent evolution) thanks to foreign cultures. I have a problem with it being replaced, and as such destroyed.

	13-06-2003 02:59									#112
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quote: I have a problem with it being replaced, and as such destroyed.

How can that happen? Why are you afraid of that? The only to avoid it is to become the next Nazi state.

	13-06-2003 03:02									#113
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The market should decide if something is desirable or not. Forcing French music to be played is just another subsidy for a falling industry.

	13-06-2003 03:07									#114
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Culture exists for man, not man for the culture. The problem with too much diversity is that it encourages segregation which in turn breeds xenophobia. We fear what we do not understand. We gravitate to what makes us comfortable. It is human nature. The truth is that we are all human. We all have the same emotions, intellect and potential. What makes one man German and another Nigerian is a simple accident of birth. What makes those two men wary and unsure of each is other (and perhaps even hate each other) can be summed in a single word: culture. Mankind has spent too much time creating arbitrary groupings of people, always with the subtext of hiearchy. Culture is one of the greatest contributing factors to these divisive groupings.

Like religion, and like many other things, culture has been a way to channel both human genius and human stupidity. It's diersity is precisely what makes us better than chimps with Brains : had we all have the same culture, this here debate wouldn't have existed, and most enriching discussions wouldn't have existed. If you browse 'Poly, you'll notice that many individual opinions are highly depending of culture, no matter on what end of the political spectrum you are.
And this is great. Because cultures allow people to think differently, communications between cultures allow people to further their understanding.

Besides, I don't know if you're fluent in a foreign language, but the very language helps shaping the way you think of things. Such differences are rare between European languages, but they can be stunning between more exotic languages. And this is great as well. Because once again, it allows to push back the borders of one's understanding, provided there is communication between cultures.

Even though culture can be a tool to advocate butchery, I don't think we should get rid of it. Not before we get omniscient

	13-06-2003 03:15									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Japher How can that happen? Why are you afraid of that? The only to avoid it is to become the next Nazi state.

No, the only way is to have a defensive cultural policy whose purpose is to raise the cutural resistance in order to slow down the pace of cultural spread, so that the local culture has enough time and funding to assimilate the foreign part into its own.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The market should decide if something is desirable or not. Forcing French music to be played is just another subsidy for a falling industry.

Thinking of cultural product as yet another industrial product is wrong, for the reasons I exposed here
Culture is much more than some anonymous moneymaking activity.

	13-06-2003 03:19									#116
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quote: No, the only way is to have a defensive cultural policy whose purpose is to raise the cutural resistance in order to slow down the pace of cultural spread, so that the local culture has enough time and funding to assimilate the foreign part into its own.

Boooo Hisssss

Cultural oppression... To do this you would have to take away the rights of immigrants! Nazi!....and to kill the thread: "Are you Hitler or something"?

ohoh I said it

	13-06-2003 03:26									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Cultural oppression... To do this you would have to take away the rights of immigrants!

Where did I mention immigrants ? I mentioned cultural flows in general. In the information age, immigrants are becoming less and less relevant in this regard. And I have no moral problems making law towards mass-entertainment companies, indeed. But I guess that making laws towards these good defenders of culture are absolutely extremistic

(I should stop, I just rolled my eyes in front of my computer )

	13-06-2003 04:19									#118
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quote: The Yugo was indegnous to someplace. That didn't make it a good car.

You bombed the crap out of the place, as a bonus you get to learn its name. Kragujevac, Serbia (parts produced all over ex-yugoslavia).

And no it was/is not a good car

	13-06-2003 04:25									#119
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Bizarre thread. The fact that Spiffor and Paiktis need to explain a basic economic concept such as "unfair competition" to Velocyrix, who studied economics IIRC, makes me even more amazed at the bad quality of American education.

	13-06-2003 04:27									#120
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Not quite Maniac.
"Unfair competition", in any free-marketer's mind, can solely come from the state messing around, and can never come from competing enterprises. It just can't. Nossiree.