12-06-2003 23:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Neither is TV, Patty Cakes. Neither is TV. -=Vel=-

TV = the box, sure...

	12-06-2003 23:59									#62
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BTw, versomething, this is not to "discard" everything american BY ANY MEANS!


Just the mass culture products.

	13-06-2003 00:01									#63
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So...if a group of Germans identify themselves heavily with the fine autos they make, then that would be acceptable (I mean, to "culturally protect" the auto industry, yes?).

The problem is, you can easily make excuses for ANYTHING and protect it as a "cultural treasure."

How 'bout just competing? It's not hard....

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:02									#64
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quote: Maybe, but we'd never admit it.

Neither the Dutch (except in their national anthem)

	13-06-2003 00:04									#65
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to compete you have to have fair ground, if it's not, you make it so.

And that's not hard either.

I'd think you understood it by now.

	13-06-2003 00:05									#66
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also i think what France did is or should be the last resort.

Not that it was "bad" but it was drastic.

greek radio plays 80% greek music, there isnt even a question of doing what france did.

i myself like other kinds of music though. and i love many of the american bands.


on a side note but relevant,

I like the french institution of accomodation of foreign technological terms though, i think it belongs tot he french academy?

puts some order into things.

i'd like to see that in greece too.

	13-06-2003 00:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So...if a group of Germans identify themselves heavily with the fine autos they make, then that would be acceptable (I mean, to "culturally protect" the auto industry, yes?).

Nope because "big autos" can be made anywhere, even though the best originate obviously from Germany OTOH, German speaking programs, which use references very specific to the German culture (the same way "banana" is a reference very specific to the Apolyton culture), are only productible in Germany. As such, culture isn't an industrial good like the others. That's what the Yanks never manage to understand in trade negociations.

quote: The problem is, you can easily make excuses for ANYTHING and protect it as a "cultural treasure."

Indeed, it can be misused. It doesn't mean that it should be used when it is right to do so. In the case of French music, it is perfectly legitimate to talk about a cultural thing.

quote: How 'bout just competing? It's not hard....

Same as before: Cultural goods and services do not follow a purely economic logic and should not be dealt with in a purely economic fashion
Gosh, how many times should I repeat it ?

	13-06-2003 00:08									#68
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Big companies have weaknesses that can be easily exploited by smaller, nimbler, indigenous companies.

We see it every day in action here. Is it so different there that this could not work for you as well?

Big, monolithic agencies move like sloths. I still say that if you want to support local artists, then support local artists! A Federally mandated law which blocks other forms of entertainment and FORCES you to look locally is certainly one solution, but it is not the best solution, for reasons that should be painfully obvious.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:11									#69
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Spiff, I'm not ignoring you, I just don't agree.

If there's local musical talent available, and "american imports" available at the same time, and everybody in France CHOOSES to pay money for the American stuff, leaving the French artists to wither, then....I would say that's because the French people are voting with their wallets and choosing what they would rather hear.

If they wanted to, they could just as easily go support the local music scene. We do that here, and our countries are not so different. Yet, we are in no danger of having our music be "washed away" by French music, or German, or the music of any other nation (and yes, even in the heart of Dixie I can put my hands on any number of CD's from Europe)

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:11									#70
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to make a local TV program you need 100 euros.

To rent one from the US you need 10 euros.

Do the math, the chanels choose based on this primarily.



now the WHY american program is 10 euros?

beause the US has most of the mass media outlets. = unfair competition, remedy just around the corner


and of course this wouldnt be a problem if the reasons i explained didnt exist.


but mass culture producst will alwways be blunt and harmful and in order to have global "penetration" yopu need to be a mass cultureprogram.


it's a vicious circle really, so there isnt even a questionof what must be done

	13-06-2003 00:13									#71
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There is a somewhat different problem for culture in a free market. Free market exaggerates. So if the demand in a given country is 60% American, 30% French, and 10% German music, market will produce 90% American, 9% French, and 1% German music, because every vendor tries to get something of the big cake. (As an example: To get at least some attention, most German pop bands sing English, with all the horrible consequences regarding pronounciation. If you can't beat a language, corrupt it .)

	13-06-2003 00:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If they wanted to, they could just as easily go support the local music scene. We do that here, and our countries are not so different. Yet, we are in no danger of having our music be "washed away" by French music, or German, or the music of any other nation (and yes, even in the heart of Dixie I can put my hands on any number of CD's from Europe) -=Vel=-

and how many german or french songs do you hear a day on your radio?


germany and france dont possess the same amoutn of mass cultural outlets and networks that you do, hence the unfair competition which renders your "voting by the wallet" argument void.

	13-06-2003 00:15									#73
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:: shrug:: have it your way. If that is what you believe, then am obviously not the one to convince you otherwise.

(still doesn't make you right tho)

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:16									#74
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I'm afraid that's just the way it is.

	13-06-2003 00:20									#75
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Spiff: I disagree. True, I don't hear any French/German bands on the radio (tho a fair number of Latino ones....proximity, I guess). However, if I want to hear a local band, it's as easy as a trip to a local nightclub.

You guys have local nightclubs, I assume? And there, local bands play? (it'd be a bit expensive for American bands to make the trip).

Thus...the beginnings of a grass roots support for local musicians.

With current technology, it would NOT be hard (nor overly expensive) to set up a sound studio (of which, I assume there are some in France already), and anybody with a decent CD burner can mass produce the albums.

And *surely* with anti-american sentiment running fairly high in Europe, it'd be a snap to take these CD's to any number of local shops and sell them, touting them as an alternative to the evils of American music.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I still say that if you want to support local artists, then support local artists!

What if I don't know about them because all mainstream radio stations don't air them, and because I'm not interested in music enough to listen to smaller, less known, radio stations ? This is precisely what happened with French music before the law : there were artists, but none was known because none was distributed widely. Of course, they didn't bring any significant money by being unknown.
The distribution problem is a problem in all media : if TV stations refuse to air a TV show because they don't feel confident in its success, the program has zero chance of success. If big movie theatres or companies refuse to air a good movie, and only small "artistic" theaters do so, then the movie has also zilch chance of success, no matter what its real quality and sellability is. When it comes to videogames, well, there is a whole website dedicated to good yet underdog games which never went under the spotlight (it is forbidden to mention it here).

And guess what : It does compete ! In today's top 50, 6 of the 10 first are French speaking tunes (and one is swiss techno)

But if you look at the same top 50, you'll notice only one measly tune is in a foreign language that is not English. That's because radio stations always air British bands in their 20% of forceful European music. Surprisingly enough, British music sold also much better than before in France after the introduction of the law.
Again, we see the conservatism of the music industry striking.

quote: A Federally mandated law which blocks other forms of entertainment and FORCES you to look locally is certainly one solution, but it is not the best solution, for reasons that should be painfully obvious.

Of course, I would have preferred the music industry to be less conservative, and the US music to be less commercially agressive, so that this law wouldn't have been needed. Unfortunately, it was the only thing to do. I'm very glad we've done it

	13-06-2003 00:29									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus There is a somewhat different problem for culture in a free market. Free market exaggerates. So if the demand in a given country is 60% American, 30% French, and 10% German music, market will produce 90% American, 9% French, and 1% German music, because every vendor tries to get something of the big cake.

Ah, but the clever vender aims for an unfilled smaller niche market versus an oversaturated albeit larger market.

quote: (As an example: To get at least some attention, most German pop bands sing English, with all the horrible consequences regarding pronounciation. If you can't beat a language, corrupt it .)

We don't mind. Heck, the Brits already think we've horribly mucked up the language as it is.

	13-06-2003 00:33									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If they wanted to, they could just as easily go support the local music scene. We do that here, and our countries are not so different. Yet, we are in no danger of having our music be "washed away" by French music, or German, or the music of any other nation (and yes, even in the heart of Dixie I can put my hands on any number of CD's from Europe)

If suddenly some big fish in the American music industry noticed than cheap Indian music sells correctly, while costing nearly nothing, and if this company pushed your radio stations to air nearly 100% of cheap-profitability Indian music, you'd say something different.
The problem is not the CDs. THe problem is whether the people know about it or not. the huge majority of music consumers aren't music-loving specialists digging the most obscure CD, they are people who enjoyed a tune on the radio or MTV and are going to buy it.

	13-06-2003 00:37									#79
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Good observations. Here's how we deal with that here:

Local bands start *getting* exposure in two ways:

Write-ups in small (local to regional) newspapers that specialize in entertainment (these are given away free in most cities I have been to in the US, so even folks with only a casual interest in music can read about the latest rising stars).

Play! Local nightclubs are *always* looking for decent bands, whether known or not! And once you get a couple of gigs, it's very easy to get a couple more. Make your next one in the next town over, and repeat that often enough, and before you know it, you'll be known from Gascogne to Picardie!

And when you ARE better known, it's easier to get increasing amounts of attention.

You say that America controls more mass media outlets....how many TV and radio stations does the United States own in France? How many American music shops are there in France? Not many, would be my guess. Far, far outnumbered by the shops owned by....Frenchmen?

If the shop owners are interested in staying in business, they'll stock what sells, and again, the current anti-americanism in France (and other parts of Europe) is a strong equalizing factor. "Come! Buy the music by our local artists! Down with American Music!" )

It'd sell. WITHOUT the need to legislate it....

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:40									#80
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quote: Ah, but the clever vender aims for an unfilled smaller niche market versus an oversaturated albeit larger market.

That's why I didn't put both to 0%. If you put production costs (which don't ask for popularity) into the equation, you'll arrive at it. At least roughly, I didn't calculate a complete model

quote: We don't mind. Heck, the Brits already think we've horribly mucked up the language as it is.

And Brits say, this is mostly German influence. Double attack. Harrr....

	13-06-2003 00:49									#81
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And Spiff, if what you described ever happened here, you'd see a new crop of radio stations that played the type of music being *demanded* by the customer/listener base crop up so fast that it'd make your head spin....

(then, there'd be a HUGE market war between the existing radio stations as they scrambled to switch back and the new upstarts....it'd be awesome...)

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 00:55									#82
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator We don't mind. Heck, the Brits already think we've horribly mucked up the language as it is.

The British just do not appreciate the superiority of American English.

	13-06-2003 00:58									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Play! Local nightclubs are *always* looking for decent bands, whether known or not! And once you get a couple of gigs, it's very easy to get a couple more.

Indeed, that's how Matmatah and Louise Attaque (previously cited) begun. That's why they have been quickly chosen by radio stations when they were forced to air French music.

quote: Make your next one in the next town over, and repeat that often enough, and before you know it, you'll be known from Gascogne to Picardie!

This is wrong. Matmatah was performing in Breton clubs for a few years now, when my Breton cousin first told me about them and let me listen some low-fi tape. Without the boost from radios, they'd have need years, if not decades, to become famous. This is the big problem : People who are going to clubs (in France, they are bars rather than discos) aren't a financial or advertisial pull enough to launch someone quickly. They are simply not mainstream.

quote: And when you ARE better known, it's easier to get increasing amounts of attention.

Indeed, but radio exposure or the absence thereof is a magnifying factor bigtime. Those who get known -to the point of being profitable to a major music label- without early radio exposure are extremely rare. However, those who get radio attention can sell very even if they are completely untalented, see the boy's bands.

quote: You say that America controls more mass media outlets....how many TV and radio stations does the United States own in France? How many American music shops are there in France? Not many, would be my guess. Far, far outnumbered by the shops owned by....Frenchmen?

The French music distribution industry is mostly held by French companies, even though the British Virgin is an important competitor. No significant actor has a cultural agenda, and they all put the spotlight on tunes deemed highly profitable. That's a vicious circle : unknown tunes go to an obscure display, and remain unknown while being there, hance are unprofitable...

quote: If the shop owners are interested in staying in business, they'll stock what sells

Indeed, and famous songs are those that sell. Just like "famous" videogames are those that sell regardless of the quality (how many copies of EnterTheMatrix have been sold worldwide already ?).

quote: and again, the current anti-americanism in France (and other parts of Europe) is a strong equalizing factor. "Come! Buy the music by our local artists! Down with American Music!"

Indeed, the current antiamericanism could help local cultural products for a limited period of time. But I don't think it would have given the necessary kick to move the disc industry out of its conservatism. It would have just whined that it makes less money, with minimal adaptation.

	13-06-2003 01:03									#84
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And there is the rub.

Supporting the local music scene is not mainstream in France.

Which means that the majority of Frenchmen don't do it.

Why? Who knows....that's their thing, but they don't.

And because they don't, French local musicians have a hard time.

Until a law gets passed that FORCES the country to pay attention to the local music scene.

If you already did (ie - if support of local bands was a fairly mainstream activity), then the whole issue never would have come up, and THAT, coupled with the current anti-americanism, would have accomplished the same thing, without the government sticking its nose into everybody's business.

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2003 01:07									#85
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quote: coupled with the current anti-americanism, would have accomplished the same thing, without the government sticking its nose into everybody's business.

Freedom Fries

	13-06-2003 01:10									#86
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I just call them Belgian fries because that's where they come from.

	13-06-2003 01:11									#87
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Same old arguement. You'll never convince him, Vel. He honestly believes in American Cultural Imperialism (tm).

Me, I'm starting to think it's just an ethnocentrist mindset (racist, even?) that demands that the things in France be "French." If something isn't, it upsets him.

Though he's much more eloquent and thoughtful, I'm not sure his mindset is all that much different from Boddington's (those damn furriners are screwing up our country!).

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 01:14									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Supporting the local music scene is not mainstream in France. Which means that the majority of Frenchmen don't do it.

Well, it is indeed not mainstream here, as most of our music consumers buy what they heard on radio... Isn't it the case in your country ?
Well, I don't care whether our local artists are supported or not as local artists. It doesn't excuse the fact that, without the law, the actual demand for French music nationwide wouldn't be met by conservative broadcasters.
The French people support French music, see the Top50 above, but they only support the music that is aired by corporations.
The law didn't force French citizens. The law forced French music corporations to stop the nonsense. The French citizen had all right not to buy French music, and only to buy the vastly superior American music (still 40% of radio time was completely free, and 60% had potential of being English-speaking, so popular English or American bands are still widely aired here). Yet, they now buy French music en masse.
But of course, since the companies represent their demand perfectly, the French citizens have been coerced into buying French music

	13-06-2003 01:25									#89
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It cuts both ways here. For example, my favorite radio station (not that the call letters will mean anything outside of Columbia) is WARQ, 93.5. The reason I listen to that particular station is because two nights a week, they devote a healthy chunk of their programming to the local music scene. Every NIGHT, for an hour, they have a "battle of the local bands" competition that aires the latest offerings from local musicians and promotes listener participation by awarding prizes to folks who call in to vote on which song they liked better (often including passes to go see them at the local clubs). On Sunday, they have a 3-hour segment devoted to "underground music" (stuff that's REALLY obscure, local or not.

And Columbia is not atypical in this regard. Pretty much any city of any decent size in America does similar things in support of local music. It IS played on the air here, and there have been lots of garage bands that have grown dramatically in their popularity (love 'em or hate 'em, the band "Hootie and the Blowfish" got their start here in Columbia, SC, playing at a haven for local artists called "Rockafellas" (played twice a week for a couple of years, actually).

Happens all the time bud, and that's why I'm still convinced that the Federal Mandate approach is non-optimal.

-=Vel=-
PS to Arrian: Yeah, but you know me....

	13-06-2003 01:27									#90
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i agree with velociryx... college radio/small town radio is the best.