16-06-2003 23:29									#331
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I might respect communists, even as I poke some fun at you guys, but you can never convert me to that ideology.

Who sez we want you?

	16-06-2003 23:31									#332
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quote: No real meaning? You sadistic...

It's a cold hard number. Solzhenytsin is real testimony. That's the difference that you seem to not get, as usual.

quote: Argentina ran a scam with a bunch off gloss.. it fooled the international community until socialist overspending caught up with the government leaving it deeply in debt. Look up the facts, the government borrowed and borrowed to pay public sector employees and their own pockets. This isn't capitalist.

Well, how do you plan to deal with 40% unemployment rates steaming from the implementation of cutting the civil service back by 50%? You can't. It's unreal. But Argentina adopted an extremely neoliberal posture to the economic policy in the 1990s, and only a complete fool will deny it.

And it screwed the country up big time.

	16-06-2003 23:32									#333
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Go read up on the country before you start labelling stuff as BS.

I did just that when Argentina started going belly up a while ago. That's how I can justify the accusation of BS. Now if you would care to justify the earlier comment beyond a silly and ignorant remark, I'm more than willing to listen.

	16-06-2003 23:33									#334
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence It's a cold hard number. Solzhenytsin is real testimony. That's the difference that you seem to not get, as usual.

not many stalin defenders around are there? must be a special kind of endangered species we got.

	16-06-2003 23:33									#335
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Perhaps you should have elaborated the argument in the first place, rather than make Bald Assertion Man comments.

	16-06-2003 23:34									#336
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence It's a cold hard number. Solzhenytsin is real testimony. That's the difference that you seem to not get, as usual.

Well and?

quote: Well, how do you plan to deal with 40% unemployment rates steaming from the implementation of cutting the civil service back by 50%? You can't.

Well how can you pay for the civil services in the first place if you have nobody paying taxes?

quote: It's unreal. But Argentina adopted an extremely neoliberal posture to the economic policy in the 1990s, and only a complete fool will deny it. And it screwed the country up big time.

No it wasn't. You BSer.. the true neoliberal policies were adopted in Japan and West Germany after WWII, that is what led to their economic expansion.

What your country went through was nothing but neo-liberalism, rather piss ant stupidity with a phony government and tons of corruption.

	16-06-2003 23:35									#337
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Perhaps you should have elaborated the argument in the first place, rather than make Bald Assertion Man comments.

So far the only BAM I've seen is the one I quoted earlier. I'm still trying to find out the logical basis for it though.

	16-06-2003 23:35									#338
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quote: not many stalin defenders around are there? must be a special kind of endangered species we got.

Who wrote about it? Apparently not. But Solzhenytsin suffered it too. Now that's a hard species to find.

	16-06-2003 23:37									#339
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Who wrote about it? Apparently not. But Solzhenytsin suffered it too. Now that's a hard species to find.

I think both are pretty rare. tho there might be more of you then there are flat earth ppl.

	17-06-2003 02:12									#340
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon not many stalin defenders around are there? must be a special kind of endangered species we got.

There are literally millions, actually. On Poly OT, Propaganda and Serb are both just such people.

	17-06-2003 02:35									#341
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Millions? I would say Chegitz you are perhaps right. But most of these people are in the former Soviet bloc. Stalin is somebody not too many people would defend in the western world.

	17-06-2003 02:36									#342
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Bout the gulags - I know of plenty of people who survived 20 years in the gulag...
The purges were mostly executions, not gulags.
The forced labour of war prisoners and such is an entirely different matter tho.

	17-06-2003 02:59									#343
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Who sez we want you?

	17-06-2003 03:04									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Fez the true neoliberal policies were adopted in Japan... after WWII, that is what led to their economic expansion.

Wow, I didn't know protectionism was part of the neoliberal doctrine.

	17-06-2003 03:04									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Wow, I didn't know protectionism was part of the neoliberal doctrine.

It isn't. That is why Japan only instated some neoliberal reforms and thus experienced an economic boom.

	17-06-2003 03:05									#346
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btw, earlier in the thread elijah talked about kibbutzim; they are dying a slow, privatising death. Sad...
(I'm libertarian communits, aka anarchist, myself btw)

	17-06-2003 03:16									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Fez It isn't. That is why Japan only instated some neoliberal reforms and thus experienced an economic boom.

Oh ok. So Japan isn't an example of true neoliberalism after all, unlike what you said eleven posts earlier? Then how can you know for sure it's the liberal part of their policies that led to their economic expansion, and not the protectionist part?

I don't want to say at all I think protectionism causes economic expansion; I simply can't follow your logic Fez.

	17-06-2003 03:18									#348
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My logic? I didn't say Japan was a perfect example of neoliberalism, all I said elements of neoliberalist policy were used.

	17-06-2003 03:29									#349
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Ah ok. Sorry. I probably misinterpreted "true neoliberal policies".

Btw, I have another question for you. In your opinion, is there or has there ever been a country that was a perfect example of neoliberalism? What country, what period, and do you perhaps know economic growth figures? When you have that, we can compare with other systems to proof or disproof the superiority of neoliberal policies, and see if it is the perfect recipe for economic growth.

	17-06-2003 03:30									#350
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quote: btw, earlier in the thread elijah talked about kibbutzim; they are dying a slow, privatising death. Sad...

True, but they proved their point by working for so long! My old man lived on one for a couple of years in the early 70's, and my grandparents did the same a decade before.

[quote
(I'm libertarian communits, aka anarchist, myself btw)
[/quote]

You the man!! Check out the Mill Limit article I wrote (link in sig), see what you think, maybe pm?

	17-06-2003 03:35									#351
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quote: Libertarian communism? Man what the hell are you ranting about? There is no such thing. That is a blatant contradiction

Is this an endurance game? How many times you can make a point before people recognise (if not accept) it?

Read my article (god I'm a self-publicity machine but still...) seriously!!

	17-06-2003 03:53									#352
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not true. Castro is in no way like Stalin, and Nicaragua wasn't dictatorial at all. Finland wasn't dictatorial for the few months it was red. The Indian state of Karala has never been dicatorial. East Timor isn't dictatorial. Most places where Communists have taken power, Stalin-like dictators have not popped, though most have become dictatorships. Then again, the track record of capitalists nations isn't very good. Only a small handlful havn't gone through a dictatorship themselves.

Castor is a dictator. All most all comunist governments crack down on people who oppose them. Look at what happened in China, millions died their, millions died during the Soviet Union rule. Communism oppresses people more than any other system of government. If you trying to tell me this is not true then you need to read anther history book because the one you have is wrong.

	17-06-2003 05:59									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Castor is a dictator. All most all comunist governments crack down on people who oppose them. Look at what happened in China, millions died their, millions died during the Soviet Union rule. Communism oppresses people more than any other system of government. If you trying to tell me this is not true then you need to read anther history book because the one you have is wrong.

Not all dictators are equally bad.

	17-06-2003 07:20									#354
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Is this an endurance game? How many times you can make a point before people recognise (if not accept) it? Read my article (god I'm a self-publicity machine but still...) seriously!!

I don't care if your source was written by Pol Pot, some crackpot out of Harvard or Ronald McDonald, I am a capitalist and you won't be abled to change that with phony rhetoric.

	17-06-2003 07:22									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, I have another question for you. In your opinion, is there or has there ever been a country that was a perfect example of neoliberalism?

No.

quote: What country, what period, and do you perhaps know economic growth figures?

Chile is often a model I refer to for my own personal beliefs. They experienced a good two decades of +8% GDP growth... it has moderated out a bit to about +5.5% as of late.

	17-06-2003 07:24									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I don't care if your source was written by Pol Pot, some crackpot out of Harvard or Ronald McDonald, I am a capitalist and you won't be abled to change that with phony rhetoric.

You know a lot about using phony rhetoric, don't you?

	17-06-2003 07:32									#357
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You know a lot about using phony rhetoric, don't you?

Yeah I usually study and watch it occur on the other political side.

	17-06-2003 10:20									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Chile is often a model I refer to for my own personal beliefs. They experienced a good two decades of +8% GDP growth... it has moderated out a bit to about +5.5% as of late.

They abandoned those stupid policies. That's why the economy improved.

	17-06-2003 10:28									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Despite being communists, we happen to live in a capitalist society. Since we couldn't have changed it yet, we have no choice but to live in it, for the time being. Communism isn't an ethics of poverty nor of ascetism. Actually, one of the hopes of communism is that everybody can afford a comfortable and enjoyable way of life. I don't see any problem with doing so in the capitalist society if we can afford it.

It's called using the system against itself to change, baby.

	17-06-2003 10:32									#360
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They abandoned those stupid policies. That's why the economy improved.

No they didn't you economic illiterate.