17-06-2003 10:46									#361
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You need to go to college instead of reading all that stupid propaganda fool.

In 1982, the Chicago school economists were kicked out of Chile because of the mess that they had made there. The minimum wage was re-established and unions were given the right to organize. Then the economy recovered.

Oh, and don't forget about the 500,000 govt jobs that were created in the same year.

	17-06-2003 10:59									#362
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Unions are not a bad thing. You know I respect Theodore Roosevelt.. Yes 90 years ago if I were around I would of voted progressive.

500,000 gov't jobs? No.. the Chilean government is transparent.. so it doesn't quite work like that.

	17-06-2003 12:33									#363
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quote: It's called using the system against itself to change, baby.

But living in a capitalist society will corrupt you, and you will grow so comfortable that you will lose your drive for revolution! Mwa ha ha ha ha ha!

	17-06-2003 15:16									#364
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Unfortunatelly, many people think that being communist is feeling sympathy for USSR/Russia...

	17-06-2003 16:42									#365
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the imf isn't run by people who like the chicago school of economics--rather, they're run by people who detest it.

after the asian financial crisis of 97, most of the nations involved were forced to take imf rules in exchange for their bailouts. of those nations, only one has really improved, economically: south korea.

it did so only after chucking those imf rules--by getting rid of stupid things like austerity measures, they managed to develop a growing internal economy.

	17-06-2003 17:05									#366
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Yup, IMF "aid" screws a country over quite badly.

	17-06-2003 17:48									#367
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Where the hell does this notion that communits have to live in poverty come from? Can anyone point this out to me? Quote it?

I believe it was in the original text of many of Marx's works, but when it went to the editor they took it out. Something about people not following a movement that will lead them to poverty and despotism. They said it would put a damper on sales.

	17-06-2003 17:49									#368
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IMF aid is worse than the disease!

Last edited by Dr. Nick on 17-06-2003 at 21:29

	17-06-2003 20:45									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yup, IMF "aid" screws a country over quite badly.

Awrence loves saying it did.

Let me make one thing clear: While Awrence is off on his anti-IMF and world bank ranks I will bring up an example that did very well. Not some Eastern Bloc country, but in fact Mozambique. Through good government and ontime paying, Mozambique has attained one of the highest economic growth rates in the world and is fast industrializing itself. Though a very poor nation, the people of the country are very happy with the government. The government is highly, I mean highly transparent and would actually be a model that could be applied to Africa as a whole. This model was funded by the IMF, world bank and different constitutents.

If done right, IMF aid can provide a significant boost in the proper sectors making paying back the loans easy and simple. Since Argentina overspent itself into bankruptcy, people like Awrence have the damn nerve to make little petty comments like that while not acknowledging the **** ups of the last fifty years including Peron, military governments, Menem, De La Rua, Duhalde and alas the current government. Bad government led to the downfall of Argentina, not the IMF. Bad politics led to bad governments.

I am typing this up on my dad´s computer as mine is all packed up. Soon this computer to will be packed up. Go ahead and post a response I probably won´t get to read it. I just wish you all a good summer/winter (depending where you are) and I wish you all a bright future whether you are communist, leftist, republican or whatever. I am intending to enjoy myself this vacation. **** politics.

	17-06-2003 20:56									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Unions are not a bad thing. You know I respect Theodore Roosevelt.. Yes 90 years ago if I were around I would of voted progressive. 500,000 gov't jobs? No.. the Chilean government is transparent.. so it doesn't quite work like that.

Yes, 500,000 jobs to bring economic recovery, and Pinochet also nationalised more banks that Allende did.
That's no kind of neo-liberalism that I know of. It's just a big lie that you read in propaganda pieces. Reagan used it to promote his policies. It only worked because Americans don't know whatthe**** goes on outside of their own country.

	17-06-2003 21:38									#371
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence IMF aid is worse than the disease!

I'm still waiting. Or shall I just crown you the new BAM! now?

edit: Damn now I have egg on my face for jumping the gun. It took long enough to get an explaination out of you though. Thanks Fez.

	17-06-2003 21:39									#372
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quote: Since Argentina overspent itself into bankruptcy, people like Awrence have the damn nerve to make little petty comments like that while not acknowledging the **** ups of the last fifty years including Peron, military governments, Menem, De La Rua, Duhalde and alas the current government. Bad government led to the downfall of Argentina, not the IMF. Bad politics led to bad governments.

I'll say first that the big problem of the country since the 1930s has been a politically active military. This has by far been the worst problem, aggravated in the 1960s in the 'Escuela de las Americas' in the US where the top echelon of the army was incentivated to be politically active.

Everything bad that happened since 1983 can be traced back to the junta that ruled from 1976 to 1983, and it's not enough to say that the junta is there in no small degree thanks to incentivation from the Escuela de las Americas and the pats on the back it got from the US administration after Jimmy Carter.

But since 1983, the country has had a limited chance of recovery, but because of the debt acquired after the oil crisis of 1973 and the interest rate skyrocketting in the early 1980s, combined with the 'nationalisation' of the private debt in 1983 (one of the last measures of the military government, it quadrupled the national foreign debt overnight), Argentina has been severly conditioned in what it can do by the IMF.

I've never said that Argentine politicians are angels and not to blame for a lot of disasters, but every Argentine politician since 1983 has been severely limited in his ability to act in the economy due to the IMF's pressure. The IMF has been a very integral part of the country's economic policies since 1983, and in 20 years, the Argentine economy kept slumping. Hell, I've never said that the US and the IMF has all the blame, but by God, they have a lot to answer for when it comes to the country's situation, and the neoliberal policies that Menem implemented, from the total privatisation, to the deregulation of practically everything has led to more misery and the worst economic crisis since 1930. The IMF patted Menem on the back for 10 years while he undertook policies that would lead to this crisis, and are therefore to blame just as badly, and in no small degree.

	17-06-2003 21:45									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the imf isn't run by people who like the chicago school of economics--rather, they're run by people who detest it.

Do you want to explain this? I have a big problem with it.

	17-06-2003 22:01									#375
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Could people possibly post or PM me with info about the IMF and globalisation, as I dont know as much about that as I'd like to, people from all sides would be good, I might actually start a thread on it, but in the meantime, would be nice if people could enlighten me!

quote: I am typing this up on my dad´s computer as mine is all packed up

Cos of the new motherboard or whatever component it was? If so, check the power ratings.

Heres a thought by the way...

Are communists (in the quasi-traditional sense... those that believe that private property is wrong), hypocrites? That does not apply to me, as I am a libertarian communist, thus private property is allowed and encourages, as is capitalism.

Perhaps we could separate out utilitarian material possessions, i.e., something there to do a necessary job, from stuff that is surplus to requirements, i.e., a garage full of ferraris when a lada will do the job etc etc.

Different levels of necessity obviously, use a bit of Maslows hierarchy and a bit of common sense (I need a computer to write a book, or rather, to speed up its writing etc etc), instead of saying necessity only applies to level one on the hierarchy.

	17-06-2003 22:05									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan It's called using the system against itself to change, baby.

The left is rather short of resources. We have manpower, sort of, but little else. Last year I came to the rationalization I could better serve the movement by becoming an "angel," [i]i.e.,[i] a wealthy doner. 'Till I reach that point, I'll still be a rabbel-rouser and an organizaer and propagandist, but at some point I'd like to retire and raise kids.

	17-06-2003 22:10									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the imf isn't run by people who like the chicago school of economics--rather, they're run by people who detest it. after the asian financial crisis of 97, most of the nations involved were forced to take imf rules in exchange for their bailouts. of those nations, only one has really improved, economically: south korea. it did so only after chucking those imf rules--by getting rid of stupid things like austerity measures, they managed to develop a growing internal economy.

Those policies at the end are "Chicago School" policies. The IMF promotes the policies of old Milt.

	17-06-2003 23:05									#378
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I knew Fez was going to use Chili as an example. I think the burden of proof lies in Fez' camp. Basically, the periods of economic booms in Chili are accompanied by slightly larger busts. During 1973-1989 the Chilean economy has shrunk.

	17-06-2003 23:48									#379
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Maniac, again you have misstated my intentions. There was a debt crisis in Chile during 1982, similar to the one in Argentina. But since 1985 Chile has made a marked success with pro-capitalist reforms...

http://tiss.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de/we...s/themeB6c.html

quote: Yes, 500,000 jobs to bring economic recovery, and Pinochet also nationalised more banks that Allende did. That's no kind of neo-liberalism that I know of. It's just a big lie that you read in propaganda pieces. Reagan used it to promote his policies. It only worked because Americans don't know whatthe**** goes on outside of their own country.

No that is bullshit. All of that is just crap. So no. 500,000 private sector jobs were probably created in the latter years of the Pinochet era.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was right that the Chilean Copper Company remained in state hands because that was important in financing the country out of its 1983 debt Crisis.

	18-06-2003 01:54									#380
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In 1989, Chile was in very bad shape economically, AFAIK.

	18-06-2003 04:08									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Fez No that is bullshit. All of that is just crap. So no. 500,000 private sector jobs were probably created in the latter years off the Pinochet era.

Well, you go ahead and keep spouting of nonsense then.

	18-06-2003 05:34									#382
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence In 1989, Chile was in very bad shape economically, AFAIK.

Actually no it wasn´t.

	18-06-2003 06:24									#383
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Weren't you going away and never returning?

	18-06-2003 06:24									#384
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Weren't you going away and never returning?

	18-06-2003 06:24									#385
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Weren't you going away and never returning?

	18-06-2003 20:54									#386
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quote: There was a debt crisis in Chile during 1982, similar to the one in Argentina. But since 1985 Chile has made a marked success with pro-capitalist reforms...

As the article I linked to says, much of that growth after 1985 is simply making up for the losses during the crisis around. Also that article says that after 1982 Chili actually became less neo-liberal in its policies. Is that article wrong then?

	19-06-2003 00:51									#387
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So chile is now representative of the debate between communism and capitalism?

	19-06-2003 03:00									#388
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For me at least not. I consider it an example that the neoliberal policies Fez advocates aren't so great as he thinks.

	19-06-2003 21:45									#389
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I'm just bumping this for me, but we studied the Alfonsin and Menem administrations this week in uni and I was going to refute Fez's perception on the entire Menem administration. Just bumping it up so that I don't lose it elsewhere.

	20-06-2003 00:29									#390
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You could write down the thread id somewhere.

*bump*