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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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Vondrack, you should know that Vox is already preparing for a journey of exodus for several turns now. This is why I'm surprised that our offer, to basically help them carry out their own plan by agreeing to a long term of cease fire and offering our help wherever we can, is met with such harsh words from Beta (despite the fact that diplomatically, Vox has not conveyed any disapproval of this proposal to us).
Beta is trying to present us as cruel for demanding that Vox would evacuate the continent as a prerequisite for peace, but really his team is preparing for the same event for some time now. As for why we make this demand, I think that Nathan has made it crystal clear. Whether our paranoia is justified or not, what's certain is that Vox has knowingly and deliberately triggered that paranoia. 
As for Vox's gestures, Nathan has clearly demonstrated why the first so-called gesture that Beta mentioned could not really be considered as a gesture. I'd like to note that their second so-called gesture is also just rational troop movements - they did not attack our beachhead the previous turn, because they were waiting for reinforcements so that they could attack with twice the strength.
Anyway, we might have appreciated these alleged gestures... had we been informed that Vox Controli thinks of these maneuvers as gestures. However, we were told by Jon that Vox has made several in-game mistakes regarding troop movements in their last few turns - perhaps Beta tried to make these mistakes look like gestures and use them in his slander campaign.
Anyway, it is clear to me that Beta's latest attempt to sling mud at GS has much in common with his previous attempts (including his claims that we were violating a tech agreement and blocking Vox's roads, which were obviously false, as Beta has later admitted).
Last edited by Shiber on 13-06-2003 at 22:48
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:28
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Disclaimer: this post does not express any official stance of Legoland, though it may be close to it. I am speaking for myself here.
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Vondrack, would surviving with only a single city on our continent be worth the bother for Vox even if we would consider allowing them to do so? The way I've been looking at it, unless we would be willing to leave Vox enough on our continent to be worth their while, they are a lot better off evacuating and finding somewhere else to set up shop. |
I read this as "yes" to my question.
Do not get me wrong. If I was GS, I would most probably think along the same lines, or at least consider the same approach. Just that I would be ready to accept others will frown upon my decision to more or less kill another civ. Heck, even the dumb AI does not like you when you do it to another AI. Or, if we are to consider your wish to have Voxes gone from Estonia rather than dead, I'd be far from expecting others to be thrilled about the idea of having to handle a problem that used to be yours (having you grow stronger on their expense).
I am not saying what you want to do is unreasonable, bad, immoral, whatever... I just say that you can hardly be "surprised" if other teams do not feel like applauding your plan. "We were looking for ways to expand on Estonia anyways, so this war is basically welcome..." - I believe I am quoting this correctly. GS is determined to expand, GS shows its teeth now - no compromises, no generosity towards an exhausted enemy. No potential security risks, please. Instead of, say, asking for Elipolis (a key chokepoint city) and banning Voxes from having any navy - which would basically save you from having to invest heavily in defenses on the Voxian border, you simply say: we want them gone. Fine with me, you are certainly free to decide that way. You want to have your empire conveniently sealed. Fine. Does it cause others a problem? Not your business. OK, I respect that - but I am going to remember it... and next time something I may or may not do might cause a problem to GS... it may not be my business either.
Again - I'm NOT trying to imply that what you intend to do is wrong or immoral. Just pointing out that you are ready to trade your own convenience and security for the inconvenience and problems of others. Alright. But it is only natural that others may call for a peaceful solution, wishing to keep their security, convenience, arranged deals, overall balance of power etc. IMO, there is no perfect solution - whatever happens, someone will have a problem, at least to a certain degree.
And I do not believe there really is anyone to be blamed for that... looking at the map, I do not see how you and Voxes could avoid a conflict. Considering the starting locations of you and Vox, they did the only thing that gave them at least some chance to survive. A surprise attack aka backstabbing. Your own members stated it was smart. Despite catching you by surprise, Voxes seem to be losing the war - how much their own mistakes contributed, how much your superior tactics did, and what role pure luck played, I do not know. The fact is that they are publicly declaring they've lost - and all they seem to want is a piece of land to retire for the rest of the game. You say: no, we are going to finish you off (or at least drive you off Estonia). OK, fine, your choice. Just do not expect others to be thrilled about it.
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
if you're interested in keeping Vox alive.  |
Legoland is committed to keeping Vox Controli alive, yes. We will certainly consider doing more than just letting vondrack express his own personal ideas here.
But as pointed out above - you are getting rid of your "problem" and we seem to be bound to feel it soon.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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Vondrack, I absolutely agree.
None of us expects any members of the other teams to be happy about this. Vox is, after all, a pain in our side, and their continued existence limits us and weakens us. The goal of the game is to win (and have fun in the process ), and that can be achieved primarily by strengthening yourself or weakening your contenders for the title.
Still, I get the feeling that your impression of GS is greater than what it really is. "We are determined to expand" (I don't know if this is a quote, or of whom, I'm just using this to make a point) - yes, but who isn't? And it is not like we have prime territory now.
(by alphabetical order) GoW has wonderful territory, with so much grassland and many rivers that run through it. Lego Land has two land masses all to itself since the beginning of the game, though alas it is plagued with jungles. ND controls several great city sites for production and wonder cities. RP has secured to itself more tiles than the entire continent of Vox and GS has to offer. GS may soon control its own landmass as well, but it is not a big one, and only one river runs through it. In fact, we may be interested in trading our world map soon enough, so that will give everyone a chance to see that I am right.
What puzzles me, though, is how come when GoW and ND were almost frantic about driving Lux off of Bob few have publicly expressed their discomfort with the idea, whereas when GS wants to remove Vox from its territory, a civ that has caused much more trouble than Lux ever did (according to my knowledge of their actions that have agitated ND and GoW), so many people raise an eyebrow and frown at our declarations (which are much less harsh than the ones that ND and GoW have released during the war with Lux, particularly the Tripula the Impaler folklore).
Maybe there's something that I'm missing. Maybe I'm not reading the political map correctly, or maybe GS has made some diplomatic mistakes in the past to make the other teams "wary" of it. If you have any idea, and can talk about it, please tell me - I am very curious.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:28
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Vondrack, thanks for an honest and balanced post, although the idea that GS welcomed the war as a chance to expand without violating any agreements [edit: or engaging in aggression ourselves] was merely the sentiment of certain (relatively hawkish) members, not of the entire team. Personally, I would have been much happier had we been able to continue to focus most of our efforts on building.
I might also point out that ND and GoW pushed the Voxian problem back onto us by declaring war when Vox tried to expand onto the continent GoW calls Bob. So we're hardly the only civ guilty of pushing problems off onto others where Vox is concerned.
Nathan
Last edited by nbarclay on 13-06-2003 at 23:39
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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Ok, though it took a while, and much has been said already, here is the official GS response to Beta's post:
The Gathering Storm would like to respond to the allegations & accusations made by Beta in this thread.
quote:
- they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis |
We already control South Estonia for all intents and purposes. Vox's units in the area are fleeing back to the homeland.
Not a concession by Vox, but a reality already.
quote:
- we gift Dissidentville to them |
Dissidentville is a shell of a town, pop rushed several times, and not in a position that GS would like to build in. We are now in control of the mountains to the south, and Dissidentville will fall regardless.
Not a concession by Vox, but an eventuality they hope to cash in on.
quote:
- we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war. |
This was part of the deal. They say they are willing to admit their guilt, and apologize. Then without responding to our latest proposal, make a public diatribe targetting the honorability of GS.
Why would we believe they would keep their word this time? And furthermore, why does this really matter? If Vox apologizes publicly for starting the war, will any of the other teams actually care?
quote:
- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era. |
We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.
Why should we feel they would hold to this treaty?
quote:
- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns. |
We are discussing trades with other teams at this point. Engineering in 15 turns is later than we can get it from other sources.
A real concession from Vox, but what guarantees does GS have that Vox would keep to their promise in this or any regard, given Vox's previous breaking of their treaties?
quote:
-we provide our free tech going into the next era. |
Again, much like the previous argument. Although Nationalism is a very valuable tech, and GS wouldn't mind getting it for free. Would Vox keep to their word?
quote:
-we will not attack Inchon |
No comment on this due to strategic and tactical reasons.
quote:
-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia |
Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.
quote:
- this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. |
AFAIK, no statement of this type was ever made to GS. GS representatives made it quite clear to Vox that hostilities would continue until a peace deal was reached. Further, Vox's stack in the area was dead to rights, with catapults having gotten them down to 1 or 2 hps each (2 at 2 each, the rest at 1), and another round of firing reduced them all to redline. We were going to destroy that stack that turn anyway, regardless of the move off the mountain. Their supposed "good will" move also threatened several of our workers.
quote:
They have now landed troops in North Estonia. |
Yes we have. As stated previously, hostilities will continue until such time as a formal peace treaty is finalized.
quote:
-and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping. |
This would represent a concession on GSs part.
quote:
-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression |
We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own? If it is an agreement not to trade for iron, well, again, trust is an issue.
Beta goes on to try to portray GS as "greedy" because we want them off the continent. I would simply remind the rest of the world that it was Vox that started this war, not GS. They dropped large stacks of immortals on us, seeking to conquer what they term as "South Estonia." We had to scramble to defend ourselves, and it was a very close-run thing, I assure you. Now that the tide has turned and we're winning, Vox wants us to have mercy on them?
I ask a simple question: why should we?
-Arrian, co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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Here is a shot from last turn of the area surrounding Inchon.
Vox graciously not attacking Inchon, or just waiting until all of their forces are in place for the attack before they unleash all of their available might at Inchon?
Note that they did attack Inchon this turn (after positioning their troops for this attack the previous turn).
Edit: I initially posted the same shot twice. Shot replaced.
Thanks Arrian!
 Attachment: vox2.jpg
This has been downloaded 145 time(s).
Last edited by Shiber on 14-06-2003 at 00:18
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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Wrong shot, Shiber.
Edit: that's better.
Though a before/after shot would illustrate our point better: that Vox needed an extra turn to mass their forces in order to attack Inchon, and were not doing us any favors.
-Arrian
Last edited by Arrian on 14-06-2003 at 00:21
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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Togas, I hear you. I understand that PoV. Can you see ours, though?
One other thing:
quote:
Gathering Storm is now the greatest nation in the world, surpassing all others with more citizens, power, wonders, and military might. None of us come close. |
While right at this moment, that happens to be true, it's largely an illusion. And it appears to be a common perception, which worries me because it colors other's perception of us and our actions.
Wonders: Sure, we have the Lighthouse & Sun Tzu. The first was the result of a failed attempt at the Pyramids. The second was the lucky result of a battle, and yeah, that's a nice plus.
Population: temporary. We've leveraged what we have pretty well, but the fact is that every single other team has more space than us (even if we eliminate Vox & take "north Estonia"), so it cannot last.
Military might/power: Sure, after blowing our whole GA on it!
-Arrian
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Here is a shot of Vox's stack of immortals that they moved, as part of an alleged gesture. Previously, the immortals were stationed on the mountain tile just barely visible southeast of their position in the screenshot.
Also note how their so-called display of good will threatens three of our undefended workers.
Vox removing a "threat" as a display of good will, or just trying to get us to let these units escape to heal and fight us another day? Or perhaps trying to get back home "through" our workers (since there is no other possible escape route), capturing them in the process? |
I don't see how we would have known your workers were there?
you have to admit that the plains are less defense than the mountains
Jon Miller
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Here is a shot from last turn of the area surrounding Inchon.
Vox graciously not attacking Inchon, or just waiting until all of their forces are in place for the attack before they unleash all of their available might at Inchon?
Note that they did attack Inchon this turn (after positioning their troops for this attack the previous turn).
Edit: I initially posted the same shot twice. Shot replaced.
Thanks Arrian! |
you gave us an ultimatium we could not accept and landed next to our cities
(BTW, one of our mistakes was allowing you to land there (Beta had not noticed that you could do so))
Jon Miller
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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Togas,
Let's face it (and please don't be offended by my direct approach): IMHO, RP, as any other team, would like to see GS (and for that matter, every other team) "pruned" a bit and weakened. It is in your best interest in-game.
But noone can expect GS to settle for about a quarter of what we can get by continuing the war just because they need to be "nice" to the people that have undertaken great efforts to slander them several times before and continue to do so even as peace talks take place. Such a bad and terribly unprofitable decision, following an entire GA wasted on military production, could very well be a "game breaker" for us (in the negative meaning of the word).
It's like asking ND to stop their military campaign when they're facing a pruned Lux Invicta with only a few Luxian units standing against ND's swordmen and total annexation seems imminent, because you'd hate to see Lux go. Surely, you wouldn't have dreamed of making such a request, am I right?
Oh, and I assure you that your impressions of GS as some monsterous empire are not true. I am convinced that either RP or Lego would soon surpass us in might and production ability due to our territorial limitations.
We are discussing the possibility of trading our world map. Then, you will have a chance to see with your own eyes that we are, in fact, the least of your concerns.
Btw, I am absolutely certain that when we come out of our GA, we will not be the strongest economy in the world anymore. Perhaps the third, perhaps even worse...  Spending 20 turns building military units while the rest of the world can build libraries and aqueducts can do that to you some times.
Last edited by Shiber on 14-06-2003 at 01:03
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
I don't see how we would have known your workers were there? |
They were visible from your previous position on the mountain. You could have seen that they were where they were before you moved down from the mountain, since your range of sight was of 2 tiles in almost every direction (including that of the workers).
quote:
you have to admit that the plains are less defense than the mountains |
I admit it. It's in the game rules - plains give much less defense than mountains.
That still doesn't make it into a gesture of good will, for the many reasons stated in above posts.
quote:
you gave us an ultimatium we could not accept and landed next to our cities |
It's worth noting that the ultimatum that we gave you then is quite similar to the proposal that Beta has presented in his top post (even better, IMHO), and you did not accept it then. IMHO, that is what deprives you of the right to plea for it now.
quote:
(BTW, one of our mistakes was allowing you to land there (Beta had not noticed that you could do so)) |
We agreed within the team prior to the turn of the landing that if either of the landings (Inchon or Inchoff) succeeded, the operation would be considered a success (since its primary objective was to cut your supply of iron).
Therefore, even if we were not able to land at Inchon, or if you were able to destroy our forces before they could set up the town, we would have still considered the operation a successful one.
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Jon Miller
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I am going to leave for a bit (going camping)
I am the diplomat with GS, but I don't really know anything about unit placement or the like
my team is unhappy with the responce we got for our peace offer
actually this is probably partly my fault, since I was the one who worked out the original peace with GS (in the chatt), and should have chatted with MSS and Nathan until we had peace now
probably some of the issue is miscommuncatinos and the like, so why don't all the nations of th world get together and come up with a working peace
I am sure thats something can be worked out
Jon Miller
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:28
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Ok, first of all, I will make it very clear that the following is my own personal position, not GoWs although in some respects our "official" position might eventually resemble some of these points, still, it is a disclaimer as to not take this entirely as my teams resolve.
First of all, The Glory of War wishes for peace. That bit IS official. I see that most other teams are also pushing for peace, a peace which can satisfy both GS's demands for a just exaction of revenge as well as Vox's pleas for survival.
Second: upon reading Betahound's initial peace proposal, I think that it is a start, obviously not definitive, but a start on which to base peace negotiations and that it should not be discarded off the bat. Teams learn from their mistakes and I'm sure that there IS a way to keep Vox as an existing civilization while eliminating any form of potential aggression towards GS. Banishing Vox completely from Estonia is but one of the options, one which IMO is rather harsh and should only be considered if all diplomatic channels fail. So far, diplomacy has only started.
Third: there have been many comparisons between this war and the ND/GoW vs Lux war and I do not think those comparisons are fair. First of all, that war ocurred at a time when all civs were doing their early expansion and were very wary about each other. Second, GS honestly does not know the diplomatic situation surrounding the Bobian civs at the moment and I think it is inappopriate for them to assume the situation was the same back then as it was on Estonia during this war. Finally, some of Lux's deals made other teams rather wary of them, whearas for the most part it appears all teams have been able to deal fairly with Vox to a certain degree. We of course had problems with Vox during its incursion in Bob, and fortunately that issue was resolved diplomatically. There is no reason to think that this one shouldn't.
I urge GS to reconsider its "all or nothing" approach without exhausting all other multilateral options (god, I'm sounding like Kofi Annan right now...). Me personally, and probably my team would more than agree to act as mediators to end this conflict and I'm sure other teams would too. Furthermore we would also most likely agree to a "security system" in which the world community could somehow guarantee a secure GS-Vox border, perhaps even stationing "peacekeepers" on the chokepoint or some other idea.
Again, these are mostly my own personal opinions and ideas. I hope they can be discussed and acted on, and hope both teams look to the other teams for mediation and support. As far as the Glory of War is concerned, we are more than happy to do this, for the sake of avoiding future frictions between Vox and Gathering Storm. What happens in Estonia affects the world, and we don't want this conflict to spread or to lead to grudges further down along the road.
-MZ
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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[disclaimer] Same as yours, MZ, I'm not speaking on behalf of my team, but something tells me that others will agree with my views [/disclaimer]
What is it will all these other teams, not involved in the war, wanting peace? And while I don't want to sound rude, how is it any of your business? The Gathering Storm was attacked. We have responded. Now that we're winning, the rest of the world seems to want to prevent our victory and acquisition of Voxian lands (which is what the Bobians got out of the destruction of Lux). Please don't tell me you're doing it out of some heartfelt desire to keep Vox in the game because their elimination would be cruel.  Vox is worth something to you: possible tech deal(s) for nationalism, and of course, if they have land left on Estonia, it's land GS doesn't have.
And while we might not have a clear picture of the Lux situation earlier in the game, I don't think you all have a crystal clear picture of our relations with Vox - notwithstanding the various "public announcements."
-Arrian
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13-06-2003 21:49
It shows team spirit but not lacking in a sense of humor.
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