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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:28
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From the People of Legoland,
Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.
As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the right answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.
GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS.
But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all may discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.
As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration. There is still a chance for good things to come from all of this, if people are willing to work together.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:28
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If Vox had truly repented of their treacherous ways, Beta would not have used half-truths to slander us further in a last-ditch effort to bring foreign pressure to bear against us. While I do believe that Vox regrets the consequences their actions have brought down on them, I view that as something entirely different from true repentance. And when the signs I see point toward continued self-serving duplicity, not true repentance, I cannot accept arguments based on the premise that Vox has repented as valid.
I also fail to see how Vox's continued presence on our continent benefits global stability - unless, of course, you view "global stability" as synonymous with having Gathering Storm weakened by the need for extra troops to guard against an untrustworthy neighbor while Lego faces no such obstacle. In my view, stability would be served far better by having Vox share a land mass with its apparent friends than by having them share a land mass with a nation they have betrayed and attacked. So far as that is concerned, given their foreign minister's self-serving, deliberate, and dishonest efforts to promote international discord in this thread, would not the best thing for global stability be if Vox were eliminated completely?
Nathan
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:28
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What I'm syaing in this post are just some of my personal views.
GS states every time that they do not trust Vox because it has broken the agreements and treaties they hade with GS. I am getting the impression that Vox should have properly terminated their agreements and treaties before they started their war. This is, honestly, bullshit. I cannot imagine that the strategists of GS are so naive that they would not expect war when Vox would properly terminate the treaties, knowing that Vox had a very bad territory and the only solution to a better one was to attack GS.
That GS does not trust Vox after this treacherous action (whether it was the only option or not, it remains treacherous) is fully understandable to me, I would think just the if Vox would have attacked Spain.
However, IF Vox would be kept alive in north Estonia, GS has no other option than to trust Vox again by making deals with them. GS could benefit from that.
To reply to any concession of Vox's peace proposal with "very nice, but we cannot trust them" is, in view a bit an overreaction. I agree that it is for you very hard to trust Vox now, but after 60 turns of peace, you must have regained some trust. If Vox promises to give their free techs to you by the time they enter the new age, I trust them, and GS should trust them too by that time.
This counts but only IF Vox will be kept alive.
Beta is very clever. He knows that diplomacy is not GS's best side. As Vondrack pointed out, GS's diplomacy is a "plain disaster". You have to do something about that. It would have been a lot easier for you if you were just as good as Beta in building up a fair image of your country.
Another thing is that while reading everybody's posts in this tread, one question came up in my mind: Have the members of GS ever heard of the Versailles Treaty of 1918?
France demanded that germany would be heavily punished for the treachery of breaking treaties and other evil crimes they committed.
Brittain was less demanding, though they had huge debts to the US.
The US pressed on not burning Germany to the ground, not turning it into a poor farmer's state without industry, a medieval state, like France demanded. Finally, France had to accept to only get control of one of the main industrial areas of Germany, the Ruhrgebiet. Although France's demands were not totally included in the treaty, it was still a harsh treaty. We all know what the outcome of this so-called peace treaty was: countries distrusted each other and Germany was extremely poor.
These two facts caused another world war to break out, 21 years after the peace treaty of Versailles.
What I mean to say with this is that it is up to GS to decide what they will do with Vox, but that anything you do will have consequences in the future, negative or positive in any way you can think of: your economy, your power, your international relations, your diplomacy and of course your very survival, will be positively and negatively influenced by the decision you make now. Removing Vox from your continent may cause economical benefits, but a diplomatic disaster that will isolate your nation and prevent it from winning. On the other hand, accepting the Beta Treaty may cause your country to be everyone's favorite, but have serious negative implications for its power in the world on the long term.
I want to finally state that I understand GS very well and I would almost surely have done the same against AI. Vox has lost the war and a consequence of losing a war may be losing all your territory and your independence. Vox has to accept that like everyone else. Vox knew that there would be a risk that such would happen when they started the war. This may not be nice, but it's the way it goes.
Aidun
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beta
Ok - that's half of it. |
Says you.
You fail to provide any evidence with that remark though. Empty words do not impress me.
Aidun: I am absolutely certain that accepting Beta's proposal will not make us the world's favorites all of a sudden. As for the trust issue, I can testify about myself that I would have been able to trust Vox again even though they have violated several agreements with us in the past, if Beta didn't go out of his way to assure us that Vox is furious with us and will constantly conspire against us once the war is over (much like they have done ever since the war began). In other words, Beta's out-of-game actions demonstrate Vox's nature much more intensely than Vox's in-game actions do.
Therefore, the best solution in GS's sake would be to remove Vox from our continent and relocate them to where they can cause the least harm to us.
As for your analogy to the Versailles treaty: the Versailles treaty is one of the causes for WWII, because it enabled Hitler's rise to power (along with the depression in the US which cascaded all over the world, and particularly over the German economy, and many other foreign and domestic events). There is also the matter of the rest of the world keeping quiet as Hitler created the Nazi state, built a huge army, annexed Austria and so on and so forth. But I was never fond of comparisons between in-game events and major historic geo-political events anyway.
Whether there is a lesson to be learnt from this analogy is a different issue, but I assure you that we've done our thinking over this a thousand times and we are convinced that removing Vox from our continent, one way or another, is in GS's best overall interest - and we act according to our best overall interest and according to the code of behavior that we believe in, much like any other team, including yours.
Last edited by Shiber on 14-06-2003 at 19:01
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Why is it ok to insult GS' skill in diplomacy? Surely insulting a team based on the skill they show in managing game mechanics wouldn't be acceptable.
There is something quite wrong with this thread (the basic premise, the responses and reactions to it, ect.), and quite wrong with the way this game is progressing in general, IMO. |
Aeson, I am terribly sorry if you took my post about the GS diplomacy as an insult. Especially because I hold you personally in a very high esteem. The VERY LAST thing I intended to was insulting GS. I was just being cruelly honest, trying to hint at what I believe were/are major faults of the GS diplomacy. Again - I sincerely apologize if it sounded like an insult.
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Master Zen asked what proof we would need that Vox has repented. The evidence of repentance comes in the form of changed behavior. Beta's ongoing efforts to twist the truth in an effort to turn world opinion against us are certainly not consistent with any kind of genuine repentance. |
Nathan, the "truth" and "evidence" are tricky stuff. What you saw as clearly hostile MIGHT have really been meant as a gesture of good will and "repentence", despite you not perceiving it as such. Honestly, what I have read in this thread is not enough for me to "decide" who's right - who's telling truth and who is twisting it (IF there is anyone DELIBERATELY twisting it, that is). Might be both ways.
So, considering that our private communications with Vox DID CLEARLY INDICATE they wanted to sign peace with you BEFORE all this happened, I am less than sure their "truth" is as twisted as you believe it is. I'm sorry I'm not at liberty to quote the correspondence, but it was not like "we just want to let you know, guys, that we would like to sign peace with GS". The notice about Voxes wishing to make peace with you was actually an EXPLANATION of their behaviour that made absolutely no sense otherwise.
The problem is that if I make my mind - for whatever reason - up and assume the other party is not honest with me, I tend to see whatever that party does... as dishonest, naturally - which is further fuelling my distrust and/or hatred... as if seeing through (potentially) twisting glasses...
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14-06-2003 06:43
Well, thanks anyway, UnO.
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