14-06-2003 20:44									#121
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Aidun, the Treaty of Versailles has a lot to do with why we want Vox gone from our continent. Even under Beta's proposal (which, by the way, has been rendered somewhat obsolete by the recent capture of Elipolis), Vox would have lost about a third of its land compared with our original border treaty. The very history you cite shows how dangerous it can be to hurt an enemy while leving them sufficiently intact to hurt you later.

As I said, whatever action you perform, whether you remove them or keep them alive, whether you have heavy or light demands for peace, it has positive as well as negative consequences. It is up to you to weigh which consequences are more important to you and which are less.

Aidun

	14-06-2003 21:05									#122
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack So, considering that our private communications with Vox DID CLEARLY INDICATE they wanted to sign peace with you BEFORE all this happened, I am less than sure their "truth" is as twisted as you believe it is. I'm sorry I'm not at liberty to quote the correspondence, but it was not like "we just want to let you know, guys, that we would like to sign peace with GS". The notice about Voxes wishing to make peace with you was actually an EXPLANATION of their behaviour that made absolutely no sense otherwise. The problem is that if I make my mind - for whatever reason - up and assume the other party is not honest with me, I tend to see whatever that party does... as dishonest, naturally - which is further fuelling my distrust and/or hatred... as if seeing through (potentially) twisting glasses...

The fact that Vox wants peace is not in dispute. The problem is that they want peace on terms that would have been far more appropriate ten turns ago, after the tide had turned against them but before we had spent virtually our entire golden age focusing on our military. At this point, leaving Vox alive on our continent simply does not provide any benefits commensurate with the costs of guarding a border against them. And after Vox's decision to betray and attack us, we feel no particular obligation to go out of our way to accommodate them.

What bothers me most is Beta's initial omission of and efforts to gloss over the fact that the immortals Vox moved were dead either way. Vox may have intended the move to be a goodwill gesture, but the fact of the matter is that leaving them alive just because Vox was proposing a treaty unacceptable to us would have been rather inconvenient. Those immortals had been tying up a significant percentage of our troops for centuries, and we were tired of it. The idea of tying up our troops yet another turn (at a minimum), and of having to either disrupt worker activities or expose pikes on flatlands to firepower equivalent to an elite immortal (yes, one-hit-point units can kill if there are enough of them and/or they get lucky), was simply not acceptable to us. And letting Vox withdraw badly wounded immortals to heal when we weren't even close to agreeing on peace terms would have been even less acceptable. Yet Beta tries to paint Vox's efforts to get their immortals out alive when they were schedued to die anyhow as some kind of grand, glorious gesture, and to paint our decision to kill the immortals exactly when we had planned to do so as some sort of evil villainy. If you can't see why that bothers me, think about it for a while.

	14-06-2003 21:13									#123
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack This is exactly what I was pointing at in my previous post. If you assume Vox are not honest with you (and can never ever be again - "because of their history"), you can never perceive their offers, however sincere they may be - as honest. They say: "we would forfeit ANY access to iron" (emphasis added). You hear: "we would not have any iron connected until we decide to attack you again". That's a vicious circle very difficult to break.

Vondrack,

We just can't take a risk with Vox again. What is so difficult to understand about this?
Personally, I was still in favor of peace without evacuation before Beta posted this thread. I believed that Vox has betrayed us simply because they believed that they had no other choice, and that the lies that they've posted about us were just meant for fun and role play and Vox (or everyone in Vox except for Beta, who persisted with this approach in his "History 101" thread) did not realize that we would treat their actions as a slander campaign. But when Beta launched his second campaign in an attempt to stain the reputation of GS even more, and present us as cruel and unreasonable, I realized that he is committed to his ways, that he may even hate us for bringing such an overwhelming defeat upon his team and that he will do whatever he can to hurt GS in the future, should he be given a chance.

To sum up, I can't speak for Nathan, but for me, I cannot trust Vox not because of their past actions, but because of their current and ongoing actions.

	14-06-2003 21:18									#124
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack This is exactly what I was pointing at in my previous post. If you assume Vox are not honest with you (and can never ever be again - "because of their history"), you can never perceive their offers, however sincere they may be - as honest. They say: "we would forfeit ANY access to iron" (emphasis added). You hear: "we would not have any iron connected until we decide to attack you again". That's a vicious circle very difficult to break.

Indeed. It is also a circle Vox trapped themselves in with a pattern of deception and unreliability.

Have you had a chance to read the Portia Accord, the treaty by which Vox agreed to allow Lux to occupy some of its land temporarily? We got a chance to see it back when we and Vox were on friendly terms. Even when Vox seems sincere at the time, they cannot be trusted to keep their word if circumstances change.

Is it possible that Vox is sincere this time, and would keep their word this time? Certainly. But why should we take that chance when we don't have to? Why should we pay the price in unwanted risks for Vox's pattern of untrustworthiness?

	14-06-2003 21:38									#125
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[personal question]

As the Lux situation keeps being brought up, is it not true that GS made demands of Vox in exchange for Vox harboring Lux? Demands of someone doing something in their own sovreign nation?

[/personal question]

	14-06-2003 21:42									#126
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Vox brought Lux onto our continent without warning. So yeah, we took issue with it, and wanted reassurances.

You don't see any foreign presence on Lego's continent, do you?

You're halfway 'round the world, and yet you see fit to tell us to make a peace that gains us nothing, and sets us up for nothing but trouble in the future.

Tell me, Zargon, what did Vox promise you that you're worried you're not going to get now?

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 22:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay What bothers me most is Beta's initial omission of and efforts to gloss over the fact that the immortals Vox moved were dead either way. Vox may have intended the move to be a goodwill gesture, but the fact of the matter is that leaving them alive just because Vox was proposing a treaty unacceptable to us would have been rather inconvenient. Those immortals had been tying up a significant percentage of our troops for centuries, and we were tired of it. The idea of tying up our troops yet another turn (at a minimum), and of having to either disrupt worker activities or expose pikes on flatlands to firepower equivalent to an elite immortal (yes, one-hit-point units can kill if there are enough of them and/or they get lucky), was simply not acceptable to us. And letting Vox withdraw badly wounded immortals to heal when we weren't even close to agreeing on peace terms would have been even less acceptable. Yet Beta tries to paint Vox's efforts to get their immortals out alive when they were schedued to die anyhow as some kind of grand, glorious gesture, and to paint our decision to kill the immortals exactly when we had planned to do so as some sort of evil villainy. If you can't see why that bothers me, think about it for a while.

Just to further illustrate how difficult it is to judge someone else's intentions, this is a snippet from a PM we (Legoland) received from Beta on June 10, 14:55 my time (4 days ago):

quote: - this includes Harry and his gang of immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (they are all down to 1 and 2 HP's as it is). Also - they will need to move one worker to allow them to get by.

You can see that they did NOT try to hide the fact their units were badly wounded - they expressly informed us of the fact. Whether they told the same information to other teams, I do not know - I can speak for Legoland only. But from our PoV, there was no "painting" involved.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber We just can't take a risk with Vox again. What is so difficult to understand about this?

It is not difficult to understand at all. I did make it clear in my first or second post in this thread that I fully understood the reasons leading GS to demand Voxes leave Estonia.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber But when Beta launched his second campaign in an attempt to stain the reputation of GS even more, and present us as cruel and unreasonable, I realized that he is committed to his ways, that he may even hate us for bringing such an overwhelming defeat upon his team and that he will do whatever he can to hurt GS in the future, should he be given a chance.

And this seems to be the merit of the debate here... and the focus of my posts. I am not trying to demonize GS - I made it clear I understood your reasoning re: Vox leaving Estonia. What I, OTOH, feel as inappropriate, is all the fuss about "Beta's second campaign". I just do not see what was so bad about it and why is it viewed as yet another nail in the Voxian coffin...

To clarify even further - I am not naive and I know that whatever I write here is unlikely to make GS change the mind about withholding the final blow. I'm merely trying to calm the emotions down here, because from what I can feel, you and some other GS members would not trust Beta even if he told you the time of the day... Perhaps I am doing something wrong and my effort to show Beta is "less evil" than you believe he is sounds like I am trying to make you look "more evil". Not my intention.

Yes, Voxes backstabbed you. No debate.
Yes, Voxes caused you severe losses (at least economic). No debate.
Yes, Voxes made extensive efforts to make others join and/or support THEIR cause, not yours. That included presenting their views and their interpretations of what was going on. No debate.
Yes, you have valid reasons to want them gone (and yes, others have good reasons to want them stay where they are ).

But, please, let's tone down all this stuff about treachery, dishonesty, distrust, deception, lies, and whatnot...

	14-06-2003 22:12									#128
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Just callin' as we see 'em, Vondrack.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 22:20									#129
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I'm sorry, but Vox was communicating to other teams the confidential terms of a treaty discussion then underway on JUNE 10TH!!!

AND, even worse, beyond that, if those were in fact terms communicated to you (i.e., about Harry and his gang), let me assure you that they were NOT the terms proposed to us; thus, whether on purpose or through an oversight, Vox has created a severe diplo falsehood.

* Theseus has pretty much stayed out of this debate until now.

	14-06-2003 22:21									#130
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX [personal question] As the Lux situation keeps being brought up, is it not true that GS made demands of Vox in exchange for Vox harboring Lux? Demands of someone doing something in their own sovreign nation? [/personal question]

We did not view the presence of a third nation on our continent, with its capital right on our border (as defined by our border treaty with Vox), as strictly an internal Voxian matter. The situation held significant potential for unwanted complications for us, both with regard to politics on our own continent and with regard to politics with GoW and ND.

As I recall, it was actually Lux that we originally sought to negotiate with in search for a way to get some benefit out of the situation to compensate us for the risks we were being exposed to. From there, the situation got complicated, and Vox ended up paying us out of gold they had gotten from Lux.

	14-06-2003 22:27									#131
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX As the Lux situation keeps being brought up, is it not true that GS made demands of Vox in exchange for Vox harboring Lux? Demands of someone doing something in their own sovreign nation?

Vox gave Dissidentville to Lux, a city at our borders, but about 10 tiles away from their core and most likely completely corrupt. They did it without asking us or even warning, and they gifted it to a team, which was portrayed as untrustworthy and unstable unisono by all other bobian civs. Back then, the hawks among us called to attack Dissidentville for security reasons (our cities were largely undefended due to scouts and good relations to our neighbors). The doves said, let's hear what Vox got for it. Since we took a good part of the risk, isn't it fair if we asked for a part of the benefit? Imagine you had a civ living on your continent, and they gifted a border city to a civ, portrayed as warmongers. See our PoV?

Vondrack: We use the words treachery, dishonesty and alike, if we are asked, why we can't think of peace with Vox anymore. And it is not true anymore, that all of us want Vox to leave our island. That's the stance of the doves. The hawks want them extinct, and Betas new stunt has tremendously strengthened this wing. This is it, what Nathan meant with every word of Beta being a nail in Voxes coffin.

	14-06-2003 22:37									#132
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I'm still extremely puzzled as to what the show of good faith on Vox's part was intended to be. Yes, they made it easier for us to kill units we were going to kill anyhow, but how would that benefit us in any way if Vox expected us not to kill them? It might have made a good test of our willingness to act in good faith had we been the ones in desperate need of peace and had Vox had reason to mistrust us. But in spite of all the trouble Vox seems to have gone to to discuss their negotiations with us with other teams, they never even asked us if we wanted the gesture! For our part, we would have been perfectly content to kill the immortals where they had stood for centuries. It was allowing them to escape, or even allowing them to continue to tie down our forces longer than necessary, that was not acceptable (at least in the absence of a peace agreement acceptable to us).

Last edited by nbarclay on 14-06-2003 at 22:48

	14-06-2003 23:04									#133
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Have you had a chance to read the Portia Accord, the treaty by which Vox agreed to allow Lux to occupy some of its land temporarily? We got a chance to see it back when we and Vox were on friendly terms. Even when Vox seems sincere at the time, they cannot be trusted to keep their word if circumstances change.

I did not have a chance to read the Portia Accord, that's right. But trust me, I know at least as much about the whole story as you do. Most probably even more. Really. And as ironic and contradictory as it may sound, what I learned about Voxes and Beta through putting together the mosaic of the Luxian affair made me trust them more (on a personal level, to be precise), actually. Yes, I know it does sound very strange. And no, my information were not based on a single source.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian You don't see any foreign presence on Lego's continent, do you?

Actually, we do.
(and we are taking care of that)

quote: Originally posted by Arrian You're halfway 'round the world, and yet you see fit to tell us to make a peace that gains us nothing, and sets us up for nothing but trouble in the future.

Uh oh, this is getting exactly to where I am trying not to go. Arrian, if I or anyone from Legoland said anything you understood as "we want you to make peace", I sincerely apologize - we have no right whatsoever to tell you so. What we wanted to say (and keep saying), OTOH, was "we would prefer and appreciate you making peace with Vox".

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Tell me, Zargon, what did Vox promise you that you're worried you're not going to get now? -Arrian

We were promised a picture of the famous warrior Grog. Autographed! You sure understand that we will do anything and everything to get this relic?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm sorry, but Vox was communicating to other teams the confidential terms of a treaty discussion then underway on JUNE 10TH!!! AND, even worse, beyond that, if those were in fact terms communicated to you (i.e., about Harry and his gang), let me assure you that they were NOT the terms proposed to us; thus, whether on purpose or through an oversight, Vox has created a severe diplo falsehood.

Theseus, the information was relayed as a response to our direct inquiry regarding the situation on Estonia. It seems to me it was pretty much the same text Voxes quoted earlier in this thread twice, later quoting it direct from their private forum, just reused for the purpose of responding to our inquiry - rereading your official response to the opening post, I do admit you objected being told this bit ever... wonder why was that? Beta? If it was never made clear the move of the wounded stack was a gesture of surrendering or "good will", I would agree that killing it off was not only "ok", but actually what one would expect you to do - as moving immortals, even wounded ones, are still immortals.

On a side-note: if it was a miscommunication or misunderstanding leading to the unfortunate failure of the peace talks and further escalation of mistrust in this thread, then the history repeats again... the ungraceful and sudden demise of Lux Invicta was, as far as I know, also a direct result of misunderstanding and miscommunication...

Though my point was that Voxes did not pretend (to us) their "healthy" units voluntarily stepped out of their hideout, but admitted the units were badly wounded... which is different from how it looks if you read the first post of this thread.


Now, everybody, I apologize but I am going to withdraw from this debate now - I can see I am in fact doing more harm than good, irrespective what my intentions are. Probably my fault for bringing this so far, sorry for that. Did not mean to offend, insult, irk, or piss anyone off.

	14-06-2003 23:19									#134
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Could someone sum up this thread for me? I find yet another spamstorm a daunting task to cover.

	14-06-2003 23:19									#135
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Vondrack, one last thing:

quote: What we wanted to say (and keep saying), OTOH, was "we would prefer and appreciate you making peace with Vox".

Prefer and appreciate? Well, then, why not contact our nation via standard diplomatic channels and get into a little more detail? You obviously would prefer & appreciate peace because it confers some benifit to Lego. Some benifit you would lose if we wipe out Vox. If it is other than merely keeping GS from gaining too much land, perhaps it would be something that could at least be discussed with us (such that Vox's demise, now virtually assured, will not harm your teams interests).

How about a chat between our teams to clear the air on this matter?

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 23:30									#136
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I agree with Arrian.
Vondrack, if you want to encourage GS to sign peace with Vox, you should have done so via the closed diplomatic channels. But when you post it here, it just looks like you're trying to put public pressure on us to accept peace (if it doesn't look like that to you at first glance, think about it for a while), which is basically what Jon had told us was the reason why Beta started this thread.
(See? We're not the only terrible diplomats around here )

	15-06-2003 00:12									#137
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When did this become the Lego - GS Cold War thread? I don't want to see hostilities start because of this (mainly because my civil war torn homeland would me in the middle). Can't we all get along............

-GhengisFarb, Emperor of the Peacemakers, Glory of Peace team.

	15-06-2003 00:16									#138
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quote: We were promised a picture of the famous warrior Grog. Autographed! You sure understand that we will do anything and everything to get this relic?

Make sure to check and double-check the authenticitystamp ;p
[/trashtalk]
-

quote: quote: - this includes Harry and his gang of immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (they are all down to 1 and 2 HP's as it is). Also - they will need to move one worker to allow them to get by.

They told you so in private they were on the brink of dying, however he did try to sell it differently in public.
-

quote: Now, everybody, I apologize but I am going to withdraw from this debate now - I can see I am in fact doing more harm than good, irrespective what my intentions are. Probably my fault for bringing this so far, sorry for that. Did not mean to offend, insult, irk, or piss anyone off.

I for one appreciate what you are trying to do here and don't take any of you're comments the wrong way.
You are pissing me off though !!!

	15-06-2003 00:18									#139
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb When did this become the Lego - GS Cold War thread? I don't want to see hostilities start because of this (mainly because my civil war torn homeland would me in the middle). Can't we all get along............ -GhengisFarb, Emperor of the Peacemakers, Glory of Peace team.

Well, who else could it be? GS has already been at war (technically) with GoW, is still at war with Vox, Lux is gone, we already had a RP-GS Cold War thread, and ND just doesn't talk - Lego is the only one left.

	15-06-2003 00:19									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber but I assure you that we've done our thinking over this a thousand times and we are convinced that removing Vox from our continent, one way or another, is in GS's best overall interest - and we act according to our best overall interest and according to the code of behavior that we believe in, much like any other team, including yours.

Eliminating all other teams and winning the game is in GS's best overall interest, but that doesn't mean the other teams are going to support your efforts to do so.

	15-06-2003 00:37									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber ....that he may even hate us for bringing such an overwhelming defeat upon his team ...

Shiber - this is getting real close to crossing the line.

This is a game. I do not hate GS. As a matter of fact I have the utmost respect for the members of GS, and GS as a team.

I am not sore for us getting our butts kicked. We are playing the game. At the mechanics level. And the one-on-one team negotiations level. And at the public PR level.

And yes - we do better at some levels than others.

So - if this game is going to degenerate into a very personal affair, I for one don't know if I even want to continue.

	15-06-2003 00:48									#142
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Beta, if you were the gifted diplomat you claim to be (ok, ok, or everyone is portaying you as), you would know, that it is poor diplomacy to piss off the counterpart you want to negotiate with. And with your past two stunts you managed, that many of those, who still voted to give you peace (under conditions, of course) a week or two ago, are now calling for your head. If this was your intent, I congratulate you for your success.

	15-06-2003 00:57									#143
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quote: When did this become the Lego - GS Cold War thread?

Never. I don't see any such thing. I see a some interesting posts by some members of Lego, and some GS responses, but in no way do they have a "coldwar" feel to them.

quote: Eliminating all other teams and winning the game is in GS's best overall interest, but that doesn't mean the other teams are going to support your efforts to do so.

Of course not. But we're not asking for your support in our efforts to defeat Vox. Our posts in this thread have been responses to allegations levelled against us by Beta, and then it evolved into a discussion with some members of other teams regarding their interest in Vox's survival.

I think you may be seeing things.

-Arrian

	15-06-2003 00:58									#144
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Eliminating all other teams and winning the game is in GS's best overall interest, but that doesn't mean the other teams are going to support your efforts to do so.

I already made it perfectly clear that I do not expect anyone other than GS to be thrilled about it in my previous posts. I understand that the elimination of Vox is against the interest of the rest of the world (you would rather see us weakened by a neighbour such as Vox).

This is the problem with such threads. People who haven't been involved from the start or haven't read every post (I assume that GF hasn't, if this is his reply to my quoted post) read later posts that were directed to other people that were assumed to have read anything (because they can't be bothered to read 5 pages full of junk; and believe me, I wouldn't have read past the first page if I wasn't involved in this affair), and they get the wrong idea of what the poster meant to convey.

	15-06-2003 03:15									#145
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Vondrack,

I wasn't targetting anyone specifically, just the general tone of this thread. I don't mind having mistakes pointed out that I/my team have made, but constructive criticism and publicly flogging a dead horse are two different things.

While many of the individual statements (and this applies to GS' comments as well), taken on their own would qualify as constructive criticism, it has gone far past that because of the repetitive nature of the points being made.

Part of it also has to do with a fundamental flaw in taking in-game (private game) matters and making them public. It makes things too personal, as these forums are certainly a big part of many of our personal lives. The messages through "in-game" correspondence channels seem much better received on our end, even when the content is mostly the same. I would imagine the same would hold true for most teams.

	15-06-2003 03:40									#146
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I hereby ask that the members of each team, especially the members of GS and Vox be polite and proper to each other.

No insulting to teams and no personal insulting.

You have to realize that this is a game and if you can't have the respect for another team or for another person, you shouldn't play.

Please, what is happening now is not like what this game was meant to be.

Aidun

	15-06-2003 03:51									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Beta, if you were the gifted diplomat you claim to be (ok, ok, or everyone is portaying you as), you would know, that it is poor diplomacy to piss off the counterpart you want to negotiate with. And with your past two stunts you managed, that many of those, who still voted to give you peace (under conditions, of course) a week or two ago, are now calling for your head. If this was your intent, I congratulate you for your success.

No one claimed I was a great diplomat. And I certainly never did. I believe the earlier reference was probably targeted more to my public statements.

* edited as per the post a few down.

	15-06-2003 03:56									#148
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If other teams would simply say, "We would rather GS not eliminate Vox from your continent because doing so would place you in a stronger position relative to us," I could respect the honesty in that. (And at least one or two people have in fact said something essentially along those lines.) What bothers me (and, I think, most others in Gathering Storm) are the efforts to cloak such self-interest in a mantle of nobility, as if your desires were somehow high-minded and noble while we are somehow doing wrong to do what is in our interest. Keep saying it enough and there's a risk you might actually start believing your own propaganda, which would not exactly work in our favor. And the fact that Vox started this war with a level of treachery an order of magnitude beyond that involved in Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor makes the public support they are getting now that the consequences of their actions are coming home to roost all the more offensive to us.

	15-06-2003 04:04									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Beta No one claimed I was a great diplomat. And I certainly never did. I believe the earlier reference was probably targeted more to my public statements. As to my diplomatic abilities - frankly - you have no idea. But thank you for your sarcastic compliment. I expected nothing less from you.

You are indeed a gifted diplomat. I've just agreed in a chat, that I will support a plan for peace, and you succeeded to reconvince me in a moment.

	15-06-2003 04:04									#150
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quote: Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor

The analogy is failed. Your goals are, without reading the thread (I still haven't gotten that summary yet ) to conquer Vox or shoo them off. The United States didn't conquer Japan. It forced unconditional surrender. Vox is asking for the chance to unconditionally surrender. That would be analagous.

-/personal opinion-

EDIT: Please excuse if during the thread something happened like GS signed peace with Vox, or Vox pulled a Lux, or everyone nuked everyone, or some other thing that renders my post moot. (In other words hurry up on that summary )