13-06-2003 15:24									#31
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It was clear throughout the chat that RP wants Vox to remain on our continent because it would weaken us. Everyone in this game wants everyone else dead or weakened, it's the goal of the game, but to say this blatantly to another team is plain rude.
Also, they didn't threaten to intervene, they suggested it. Anyway, it's certain that we will not have anyone else on our continent but ourselves.

	13-06-2003 15:43									#32
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So, what do you think of my idea to hold a press party on IRC and invite representatives from each team (but Vox, of course) to hear what we have to say about the war with Vox and Beta's announcement.

	13-06-2003 15:47									#33
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Good idea, but Vox should be invited too. To ban them from the discussion would make us look very bad, I think. Especially considering we're talking about a post they made in the public forum. If we're going to basically call them a bunch of double-crossing liars they have the right to defend themselves.

We wouldn't like it if Vox held a chat session with all the other teams to give their POV on the war - and banned us from attending - would we?

	13-06-2003 15:54									#34
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You're right.
If we're going to hold such a chat, we have to get a promise from Vox to allow us to speak for the first, say, 10-15 minutes.

	13-06-2003 15:55									#35
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I don't think Vox should be invited- their utter disrespect for honest and truthful diplomacy makes them unwanted guests in these sorts of interactions.
Why should we invite Vox for, so that they could carry on with their lies?

	13-06-2003 16:07									#36
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Why should we invite Vox for, so that they could carry on with their lies?

How would you feel if, instead of posting his message in the public forum, Beta had invited all the other ambassadors (not ours) to a chat room and given the same statement in private?

I bet you'd feel angry that they went behind our backs and didn't give us a chance to put our side of the story. We should extend them the same courtesy we would expect from others. We shouldn't let them drag us down to their level.

	13-06-2003 16:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber If we're going to hold such a chat, we have to get a promise from Vox to allow us to speak for the first, say, 10-15 minutes.

Agreed.
They've had their turn to say something, now it's our turn. When we're done calling them on their BS it'll be their turn to defend themselves - if they can.

	13-06-2003 16:18									#38
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Vox is dead. Deads do not talk. I would not invite Vox.

As for the "peacekeeper" role RP wishes to play... well, that would imply, that we trust Togas. Ha ha ha, that would be as foolish as trusting Vox.

	13-06-2003 16:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Vox is dead. Deads do not talk. I would not invite Vox.

The fact is that they're not dead yet, and they still very much have a voice that is capable of doing serious harm to our attempts to improve our diplomatic standing with other teams. We've already discussed that the best ways we can help ourselves in this game are by 1) claiming the whole of our continent by getting rid of Vox and 2) Avoiding a combined Bobian invasion and allowing good trade deals by getting other teams to like us a bit more.

I see #2 as just as important as #1 - by attempting to ostracize Vox from the community in this way we will only fuel the cause of people who have a vendetta against us. They say we are arrogant and isolationist - why should we go out of our way to prove them right?

We can control Vox's tide of misinformation much better if we confront their lies and expose them to the other teams. The only way to do that is in a chat session with all teams present.

	13-06-2003 16:33									#40
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btw, I agree that there is no advantage to us in RP setting themselves up as "peace keepers". It's a crazy idea.

	13-06-2003 16:42									#41
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quote: The fact is that they're not dead yet, and they still very much have a voice that is capable of doing serious harm to our attempts to improve our diplomatic standing with other teams.

That is why they are "dead", because they are actively using their voice to do the harm now, instead of talking peace with us.

Vox says they are evacuating the continent. We offer a peace to help them prepare, but that hostilities will continue until a formal agreement is reached. Then they come out and make a post like this?

IMO... They will not give us their Industrial tech, they weren't planning on leaving, and they were just caught with their pants down and wanted time to get their "useless" and "dead" units back to their core to make the fight as tough as possible for us.

	13-06-2003 16:49									#42
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Other teams are asking for an official GS response to Beta now.

If we are going to make one, the following points are worth making:

The immortals were on 1 hp each anyway, so they were dead wherever they were. Vox could have disbanded them as a show of good faith. As it is, they moved next to several undefended workers, thus requiring us to trust Vox's good faith.

Their peace terms basically give up nothing that isn't already in the basket for us in any case, so they go unpunished. We don't want them to think they can get into a war where at the end of it they haven't really lost anything.

We previously told them that war would continue at full pace (what was the wording) unitl a peace treaty was signed.

Although they didn't attack Inchon, it would have been stupid for them to do so last turn. They neglected to mention that they moved several more immortals next to Inchon, and the troops previously next to it are still next to it.

Net result: Vox's signs of good faith cost them absolutely nothing tactically, but they are requiring us to wait at a time when two turns delay would drastically improve Vox's position.

	13-06-2003 16:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson That is why they are "dead", because they are actively using their voice to do the harm now, instead of talking peace with us.

But in this game the harm you can inflict with diplomacy and misinformation is just as great as the harm you can inflict with a stack of Immortals. Saying "Vox is dead, we shouldn't talk to them" seems to me to be missing the point.

I agree that they cannot be trusted at all (and will say that they've been downright dishonest - almost cheats - in the way they've dealt with us), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and confront them in a public chat session. To try and cut them out of the communication loop seems to me to be ignoring them as a threat (not militarily, but diplomatically), which would be a grave mistake.

	13-06-2003 17:03									#44
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Now he's asking for assistance from the rest of the world.
Oh... my... god...

This can't wait. He's causing tremendous damage ("I'm the poor underdog, look at my puppy eyes! GS is so cruel!"). A chat session and a confrontation with Beta would be wonderful, but IMHO we HAVE to send a PM to all the teams ASAP.

	13-06-2003 17:21									#45
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How about something like

Vox choose when to start this war, but this doesn't give them the right to dictate when the war should end or what terms are acceptable. That is up to GS, if things had gone differently and Vox were winning then they would be able to dictate peace terms although it is doubtful whether they would have been as friendly as those they expect us to accept.

	13-06-2003 17:36									#46
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I hope you guys are appreciating what Vox is doing here: they're trying to blemish our good name even more. I'm not sure if other teams will come to Vox's aid after Beta's call to arms, but it sure was a nice attempt.

nye put it best: Vox is playing a card here. They've accepted that they're not long for this world (eh, I mean, the PTWDG world). They're using everything they can to ensure we have as rough a time as posssible when they're gone.

"Vox is dead"? That's a great warmonger statement, but does nothing to help our diplomatic status now. Remember that little thread ManicStarSeed started about our shortcomings? Not taking care of the public relations situation with Vox will only make us look worse on the world stage. By ignoring them and continuing the war, we'll only reinforce the image the rest of the world has of us: Gathering Storm does not care what the rest of the world thinks; they arrogantly believe they're superior both strategically and morally.

I agree that Vox must die. But this does not mean that we can ignore good diplomacy while we're happily bashing heads in.


Dominae

	13-06-2003 17:37									#47
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quote: Does anone know who the ND ambassador is?

That would be me. ND ambassador to us has been changing frequently lately.
-

One thing I really would like to add, can we stop using the word liar,lying,lies etc. in public.
Even if true, many people consider it to be an insult.
Please use things as 'creative, unjust, misinterpretation,mud slinging, even doublecrossers works , etc...
Besides, it is a game (and it's very nature is to eliminate the other, to throw him off track, therefore not really possible to lie.
In poker you do the same thing, only it's called a bluff

	13-06-2003 17:55									#48
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Lets post screenshots of the stack threatening our workers, get the health status of them all (right click, before cat shots).

-------------

Diplomatically, lets not rush. We are a democratic team, and much of the world is just waking up. Anyone demanding a response right now is just trying to cause trouble, and will do the same regardless of how we respond.

The people willing to listen to our side of the story aren't going to jump to conclusions until they've heard it. EVERYONE ELSE doesn't give a damn about what we say, they just want to take shots at us, and will take the same shots once we make a statement.

Sorry for the emphasis, but we keep shooting ourselves in the foot with every public discussion thread. Don't rush into doing the same thing here.

	13-06-2003 18:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson but we keep shooting ourselves in the foot with every public discussion thread. Don't rush into doing the same thing here.

I agree. We do need to respond to that thread, though. Maybe a point-by-point facts sheet ("We agreed hostilities would not end until negotiations were"; "the southern Immortals were almost dead", "we were not explicity told that those Immortals come off the Mountain as a sign of good will", etc.). Such stuff should be pretty compelling to everyone else, and should create an efficient smokescreen against Vox's smear attempts while we finish with them.


Dominae

	13-06-2003 18:10									#50
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Please, don't forget to explain the recent chain of events in which we recieved Jon's PM about them planning to leave the continent, while we said, that after thorough discussion, we will not explain ourselves. We don't need to justify why we want them to leave- ND or GoW where never asked for one when they continued pushing on Lux's land, and "hunting" its settlers.

I also agree with Aeson, we don't need to rush on response, a press conference will be so much better than just a public message- it'll show our dedication to defend our views, while giving the other teams a chance to reply and raise questions.

	13-06-2003 18:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm okay with keeping our responses private, as long as we send responses to all the teams very quickly. Key points: 1) Our goal is less to claim the entire continent than it is to avoid having to spend large sums of gold and shields for the rest of the game defending a border with a nation that has proven beyond all doubt that it cannot be trusted. After the way Vox lied to set up their invasion, and after their ongoing lies and half-truths in an effort to blacken our reputation, it would be hard to consider any peace treaty they sign worth the paper it's printed on. 2) Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule. We had already reduced all but two of them to one hit point with catapults by the time Vox moved them, and Vox knew beyond all reasonable doubt that those immortals were about to die unless we could be persuaded not to finish them off. Worse, Vox's "sign of good faith" put their immortals next to not one, not two, but three undefended Gathering Storm workers. If it was a sign of good faith, it was a remarkably clumsy one. 3) The only territory Vox offered to cede was territory that was already behind our new front lines, and which they no longer had any plausible chance of holding. In any case, no giving up of territory, short of Vox's leaving the continent, would solve the fundamental problem of our having to coexist with a neighbor that has already demonstrated both its willingness to attack us and an almost total lack of regard for the truth.

I very much like Nathan's tone above.

	13-06-2003 18:24									#52
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And I agree with the "press conference" approach...

We need the equivalent of Colin Powell's presentation pre-Iraq (no comments on the current discussion of its veracity), but in this case framed as a post-operation review of Vox' actions, and our reactions.

	13-06-2003 18:27									#53
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Nathans statement and tone is good. I would add a screenshot of the Immortal stack, as Aeson suggested. May be it's even time to trade maps. I think this is a good opportunity to add some goodwill in these discussions. Perhaps in exchange RP offers not to explore our shores with a galley.

There must be, besides the press conference, an official statement in the thread too. Not everyone is able to join the chat, and a lot of people seems to be interested in its outcome.

	13-06-2003 18:30									#54
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quote: 2) Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule. We had already reduced all but two of them to one hit point with catapults by the time Vox moved them, and Vox knew beyond all reasonable doubt that those immortals were about to die unless we could be persuaded not to finish them off. Worse, Vox's "sign of good faith" put their immortals next to not one, not two, but three undefended Gathering Storm workers. If it was a sign of good faith, it was a remarkably clumsy one.

I think we should rephrase the bolded statements. They're too creative - roleplaying of this kind can't help us at this stage and it just makes us look silly I think.

We don't really take that "murdering Grog" stuff seriously do we? The death of one warrior is hardly a big deal - the Immortals weren't killed because Grog died, to say that they were goes beyond roleplaying to the point of lying.

I also think that "executed" should be replaced with "attacked" - it sounds dismissive and arrogant the way it is now IMHO.

I think we should just stick with the facts and not let any emotive comments creep in. Let Vox argue the facts if they want - we can prove them wrong. We don't want the discussions to get emotional do we? That would certainly lead to yet another flame war, and what good will that do us?

	13-06-2003 18:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I would add a screenshot of the Immortal stack, as Aeson suggested. May be it's even time to trade maps.

I agree with both of those.

	13-06-2003 18:43									#56
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Trading maps now could certainly up our crediability, most important at a time like this (also an excuse to get rid of RP galley).

	13-06-2003 18:55									#57
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Possible public message (since the other teams want one, and are probably right that wanting to do it by PM looks suspicious, and chats are not always coherent).

quote: A response to Beta. First off, he never mentioned that we explicitly said earlier that the war would continue at full pace until a peace treaty was signed. The PM we got about the peace offer mentioned by Beta: (This bit would be quoted obviously, but I can't do a quote withina quote - Vulture) (Yes you can - FP) quote: I have our official Offer for the Cessation of hostilities. GS gets South Estonia. Vox takes on all blame for the conflict and appologises. We gift Dissifentville. We give Engineering in 15ish turns. We will provide the free tech from the new era. We have a few requests. One is to be able to move our dead troops in south estonia north to provide some defense against any opportunazing civilization. Another is Non-agression pact into the future. A final one (and one less important to us) is to move Inchon two squares south. Note that they never said that they would move those 5 immortals as a sign of good faith - they asked if they would be allowed to get them back home. The first we knew that the immortals were moving was when they appeared next to three undefended workers. It is also worth pointing out that with 3 immortals on 1 hp, 2 on 2 hp, and 7 GS catapults next to them that those immortals were dead if they stayed where they were anyway. The only benefit to GS in the peace treaty is one tech in 15 turns, and one a long way down the line. We already stand to gain more than they are offering for peace, so the only people who benefit from this proposed peace deal are Vox. They started this war, but they don't just get to declare that war should be over when things start going badly for them. As far as their good faith goes, they didn't attack Inchon last turn, but it would have been a deeply stupid thing to do anyway, and they know it. What they have done (which they neglected to mention) was move more immortals next to Inchon, so now they have an even larger force next to it than they did before. No forces were moved away from Inchon. Vox's moves last turn did absolutely nothing to weaken their position in the slightest. On the contrary, if they were planning to continue the war to the bitter end, I can't see that they would have done anything different. They are also the only ones who benefit from a pause in the hostilities, since their forces are not where they are most needed. If we pause operations for one turn, we might give up a big advantage. Vox are complaining that we didn't throw away our advantage after they did nothing to indicate a serious commitment to peace, and moved their 'dead' units next to our workers where they could capture them if we left them alone for one turn. Given Vox's past record of duplicity, we were unwilling to trust them, unless they made substantial moves of good faith (disbanding those immortals would have been better than what they did, and moving their units adjacent to Inchon further away. Also bringing more troops next to Inchon isn't exactly good faith, it is planning an offensive, as far as we can see). Screenshots of the Inchon and 'dead' immortal areas may be forthcoming,.

Acceptable or not?

EDIT for clarity (again - FP's edit wiped mine out)

	13-06-2003 19:00									#58
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quote: One is to be able to move our dead troops in south estonia north to provide some defense against any opportunazing civilization.

Didn't they move them West, not North like they said they would?

Otherwise I like it. Especially the final big paragraph.

	13-06-2003 19:03									#59
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I think we should post something soon. MSS is asleep?

	13-06-2003 19:06									#60
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We can't quote PMs in the general forum, can we?

I like the idea of using Nathan's earlier post - minus the roleplay bit at the beginning - plus the screenshot of the immortal stack just before we destroyed it.

Let's stay away from any mudslinging (calling Beta a liar, cheat, etc) and just state the facts. Really hammer home that we specifically stated that the war would continue until a peace deal was finalized.

We also may wish to mention that they made a peace deal, which was temporarily retracted because it hadn't been approved, and then represented. If memory serves, its re-introduction coincided with our landings at Inchon & Inchoff.

I would finish it by posing a question: in our position, why in the world should we not evict Vox from the continent? Why are we expected to show mercy to our backstabbing neighbor?

-Arrian