13-06-2003 19:10									#61
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I agree with Arrian. Nathans statement is fine. But let's rewrite this sentence (2nd point):

"Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule."

FP made some good suggestions. I would add at the end of this point:

"A true sign of good faith would have been to disband these forces. They've been nearly dead anyway."

	13-06-2003 19:10									#62
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Well we could paraphrase the PM, but I thought it would carry more weight if it was a quote, and under the circumstances I think it would be allowable.

	13-06-2003 19:11									#63
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I think most of the team have given their opinions on this.
Deciding on a final post and posting it should be done should probably be done soon?

	13-06-2003 19:12									#64
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The final wording is up to MSS I suppose, since he is FAM. I think we're all pretty much agreed on what should go in though - the facts as we see them, particularly those that rebut Beta's attempts to slur us.

	13-06-2003 19:14									#65
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quote: Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule."

The way I'd say this, actually, is this:

"Vox's remaining troops in our territory were destroyed because we're still at war. We made it clear to Vox that until a peace treaty was finalized, the war would continue. They had been bombarded by catapults to the point where none of them had more than 2hp, and most had 1. So they were practically dead anyway. We would have killed them even if they had stayed on the mountain."

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 19:17									#66
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Hmmm... all this talk of bombarding... so now we tell the world we've got a sh*tload of Cats, too?

	13-06-2003 19:20									#67
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Theseus,

We're going to have to cough up some info in order to show the "world" that Beta is full of shite. Plus, we've mentioned our cats in public before.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 19:30									#68
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quote: EDIT for clarity (again - FP's edit wiped mine out)

Sorry.

	13-06-2003 19:34									#69
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Wait for the screenshots to post IMO. Otherwise it's pretty good. I would do things item by item though.

quote: - they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis

We already control South Estonia for all intents and purposes. Vox's units in the area are fleeing back to the homeland.

Not a concession by Vox, but a reality already.

quote: - we gift Dissidentville to them

Dissidentville is a shell of a town, pop rushed several times, and not in a position that GS would like to build in. We are now in control of the Spinebreakers to the south, and Dissidentville will fall regardless.

Not a concession by Vox, but an eventuality they hope to cash in on.

quote: - we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war.

This was part of the deal. They say they are willing to admit their guilt, and apologize. Then without responding to our latest proposal, make a public diatribe targetting the honorability of GS.

Why would we believe they would keep their word this time?

quote: - we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era.

We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.

Why should we feel they would hold to this treaty?

quote: - we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.

We are discussing trades with other teams at this point. Engineering in 15 turns is later than we can get it from other sources.

A real concession from Vox, but it plays to the 'isolationist' tendancy attributed to GS in general. A stigma we hope to remove by increased trading and diplomacy with other teams. This concession by Vox would undermine that effort to a small extent, and so is not valuable to GS.

What guarantees does GS have that Vox would keep to their promise in this or any regard, given Vox's previous breaking of their treaties?

quote: -we provide our free tech going into the next era.

Again, much like the previous argument. Although Nationalism is a very valuable tech, and GS wouldn't mind getting it for free. Would Vox keep to their word?

quote: -we will not attack Inchon

No comment on this due to strategic and tactical reasons. A statement could be forthcoming in a few turns on the assessment of a Voxian attack on Inchon.

quote: -we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia

Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.

quote: - this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets.

No statement of this type was ever made to GS. Vox's stack in the area was dead to rights, with catapults having gotten them down to 1 or 2 hps each (give exact numbers, screenshot). 7 GS catapults redlined the rest when they moved to t hreaten 3 of our Workers (screenshot), and they were finished off so that we could continue our public works projects in the area.

quote: -and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

Not a concession in the least. Inchon controls the area at this point.

quote: -we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own?

	13-06-2003 19:35									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I would finish it by posing a question: in our position, why in the world should we not evict Vox from the continent? Why are we expected to show mercy to our backstabbing neighbor?

And I would add to that: "and when victory over Vox by conquest and control over all of their cities and territory seems so imminent to us, why should we settle for ~25% of that?"

	13-06-2003 19:38									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own?

I laughed out loud when I read that bit about the iron in Beta's post. I really wanted to post a repsonse saying "Wow, you're letting us keep our own Iron? How gracious of you! " - but I thought better of it.

Still ....

	13-06-2003 19:39									#72
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Oh, and let's mention that:

1. We are deeply disappointed that Vox has chosen to blow up negotiations at their peak by exposing the details of up-until-now private communications.

2. Vox have admitted to us that they are already preparing to evacuate themselves from Estonia. In light of that, how is GS's proposal, to allow them a long term of cease fire while they focus on evacuating as much of their population as possible and to offer any aid that we can in effectively and efficiently carrying out their already-in-the-making plan for exodus, unfair?

	13-06-2003 19:41									#73
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I wouldn't make the two points together... one or the other. It looks bad to say "shouldn't post private conversations" and then post the contents of private conversations (even though it's a different circumstance in both cases).

	13-06-2003 19:42									#74
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Aeson, I was just thinking about a line-item rebuttal. Then I open this thread and see that you did one.

By the way, some of the comments by people from other teams really pissed me off. Is Beta's propoganda really that good? Do people really EXPECT us to allow Vox to survive because we should be "nice guys?" WTF?

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 19:43									#75
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Shiber - #2 is the strong one. Let #1 go.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 19:43									#76
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They might be refering to that they won't trade for Iron either. In that case, it's a bit of a concession, but Gunpowder is just around the corner (if we ever start researching again that is... everyone else seems rather slow )

	13-06-2003 19:45									#77
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I think that certain players on the other teams just want to heckle us. Others have no idea of the situation, and so 'all of southern estonia' sounds like a great deal... we get all the continent but Vox's small isthmus... when in reality we own that already, and it isn't half of what their team can lay claim to.

	13-06-2003 19:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian By the way, some of the comments by people from other teams really pissed me off. Is Beta's propoganda really that good? Do people really EXPECT us to allow Vox to survive because we should be "nice guys?" WTF?

I've been thinking that too. I was reading in the RP chat how BigFree was saying things like "It just seems wrong for Vox to be out of the game" and "This feels weird to us". WTF?

We have shown far more mercy and patience with Vox than the Bobian Civs ever showed with Lux. In fact, Lux could have killed off both ND and GoW in the first 20 turns I believe (wandering warriors finding undefended capitals) but chose not to because it didn't seem fair.* Look what that bit of fair play and good spirit got them - swift annihilation.

The only teams with a track record of hounding another team in oblivion without mercy are ND, GoW and RP. For them to suggest that we are somehow not playing the game in the right spirit by wanting to conquer Vox is outrageous.


* Trip: If you read this I would appreciate it if you would let me know if this impression of mine about you finding the undefended capitals is correct.

	13-06-2003 19:51									#79
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Actually, to date, the only team to eliminate another is... Vox.

Interesting, don't you think?

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 19:53									#80
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quote: Actually, to date, the only team to eliminate another is... Vox.

Very true, although Lux were effectively dead anyway of course. One city stuck between two uneasy empires was never likely to do them much good.

	13-06-2003 19:55									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Actually, to date, the only team to eliminate another is... Vox. Interesting, don't you think? -Arrian

That could be worth mentioning. They showed alot less mercy to Lux than we are showing to them. Also it again shows them to be untrustworthy.

	13-06-2003 19:59									#82
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quote: Actually, to date, the only team to eliminate another is... Vox. Interesting, don't you think?

Does that mean we are next?

	13-06-2003 20:17									#83
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Nah, I'd leave that out of it, because everybody knows that its was ND that really toasted Lux, and Vox simply took them out for being a PitA - after Vox had saved them from destruction.

No need to get into that old can of worms again. I still think it's kinda funny, though.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 20:23									#84
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I like Aeson's item-per-item approach. It should be included in the public statement.

	13-06-2003 20:37									#85
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I don't think there's anything to be gained by mentioning Lux in the offical response - we should stick to the facts about why Beta's comments are misleading and/or wrong. I don't think we'd be giving away too much admitting about the catapults, since Vox know how many we have there anyway, so the info is pretty much in the public domain already.

Although I don't normally like point-by-point rebutals, since they have a tendency to repeat themselves and get off the point (most such things end up coming across as mentally unstable IMHO), Aeson's seems to do the job fine. But lets not let Vox dictate the agenda. We do need to say that war would actively continue until peace was signed, and I don't think we give too much away by pointing out that Vox didn't withdraw from Inchon, and brought more troops in. And maybe point out that stalling tactics only help Vox, not us.

DON'T LET VOX DECLARE PEACE!

	13-06-2003 20:45									#86
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New proposal: when MSS gets here (assuming he's around), he can review all the comments in the thread, write the response, and post it without further discussion here. I think we need to get a response out reasonably soon, and that's probably going to be the quickest way to do it.

	13-06-2003 20:46									#87
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Agreed with Sir Ralph that Aeson's line-item response (plus a screenshot) is the best response composed yet.

I might take out the exact number of our cats (7), though.

Oh, and somehow we really need to include our caveat that in-game hostilities would continue until a peace treaty was finalized. That part is crucial, IMO. It totally wipes out any attempt by them to portray moves as "shows of good faith" or whatever. We specifically stated that we would only stop fighting if we reached agreement on a formal deal.

-Arrian

	13-06-2003 20:49									#88
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Have you noticed there was no further response from Vox on the matter, besides Beta's?

I have a hunch- maybe this message isn't official at all. Perhaps this was his idea to post such a message, just to piss us off, or to force us into better terms.
I say I don't think Jon's message about a plan to leave the continent was a bluff.
We should consider this within ourselves, but stick to facts, not speculations in the following talks.

We might have a way of finding out more- simply by asking Jon what he actually meant by saying they have a plan to leave the continent.

OTOH, we might not even want to consider Vox staying in the game at this point, so there's no point in further investigation.

	13-06-2003 20:52									#89
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I am here, butat work. I have a 30 minute meeting in 10 minutes... Let me see whaat I can come up with for discussion....
Mss

	13-06-2003 21:03									#90
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Well, Nathan just basically did it. He said it's just him, but it's effectively our response.

I thought we were going the line-item route drafted by Aeson, with MSS putting the final draft together for final review, but I guess not.

It was a good post, Nathan, but why not leave it to the diplomatic corps to handle?

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 13-06-2003 at 22:14