17-06-2003 09:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sava In communism, the state doesn't exist... the public has control over production

In communism, the state DOES exist... it's supposedly controlled by the people. The "state" is the set of people who administer the country.

	17-06-2003 09:03									#32
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It is certainly true that in the past, there have been problems with labor-corporate relations, because corporate held all the cards. It is not true in our society today. We've got so many lawyers salivating at the prospect of nailing a company to the wall that the dynamics of power between the two groups is almost perfectly equalized, and if anything, has swayed the other direction.

Companies live in fear of the next lawsuit, and you won't find many that would be willing to risk their very existence to squeeze a few more hours out of the rank and file.

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 09:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker In communism, the state DOES exist... it's supposedly controlled by the people. The "state" is the set of people who administer the country.

nope... ask Che, or read Marx if you don't believe me...

	17-06-2003 09:04									#34
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Sava, for the record I agree with you and said as much in the other thread. So the question....since communism doesn't take the human element into consideration, and since it has failed when tried, why not....try something else? Why keep chanting the same old tired party line if it's unattainable?

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 09:05									#35
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker That IS fascism... except that fascism also includes a right-wing economic policy. It's the 2-dimensional political graph.

no what you mentioned IS product of ultra right wing policy. Not fascism with right wing economic policy.

fascists privatize everything, real world communists mandated govt to own everything... the end result is the same. The government ends up with the control of all industry business etc. Thats WHAT im trying to point out. Its more fascist than communist (since ideal of communism isnt fascist or pro gov! )

	17-06-2003 09:06									#36
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Sava... who administers everything then? What's the difference between communism and anarchy? What prevents Locke's predictions, that from anarchy a government will always arise?

	17-06-2003 09:06									#37
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quote: Why keep chanting the same old tired party line if it's unattainable?

I don't chant in the party line. I don't believe in Communism. And I can't speak for any others. I would generalize REAL Communists as fool-hearty idealists. **note this doesn't apply to anyone here, and I'm not referring to anyone on these boards... but mostly people I've met throughout my life.

	17-06-2003 09:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Okay, Templar....I'll bite. Tell me WHY it's attacking a strawman. We have seen communism in action in a variety of places around the world, first and most notably in Russia. And in that communist experiment, isn't that *exactly* what occured? Kill those in opposition to the party, round up the dissidents and send them off someplace remote. Why would the new dog and pony show shake out differently?? -=Vel=-

Russia. Under communism - a potemkin village. After communism, a capitalist potemkin village.

The more interesting question, in my opinion, is why Europe and America have enjoyed much greater prosperity than the Soviets, Cubans, Chinese, etc.

I would argue that the keys to success are political checks and ballances and the rule of law. The Soviets did not have co-equal branches of government that could check each other. And the law was a flexible as the leader needed it to be. In other words, the failure of communist nations were political failings collateral to the communist economic system.

We have seen capitalist nations with weak rule of law tank just as badly as communist nations. Look at Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Mexico, Taiwan, etc. etc. Based on these countries, capitalism is a failure.

I would conclude then that the problem is political in nature. Of course to test my theory we would need a politically advanced state with a communist economic system. Moreover, I do admit that this is an empirical question. But, based on the fact that rule of law is a better indicator of prosperity than economic system, I'll stick with my theory for now.

	17-06-2003 09:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Sava... who administers everything then? What's the difference between communism and anarchy?

Nobody. In Communism, the theory is that a community spirit will arise, everyone will look out for each other, and we'll all sit and sing "Kum Ba Ya". That's why it's not a political system. It's more a set of social morals and values. Ironically, a Communist world would be similar to what the world would be like if everyone followed the teachings of Jesus Christ and lived by the values in the Bible. More or less.

Communism is Anarchy, for lack of a better term, but instead of mass chaos, everyone would be a good person without the need for laws and government.

	17-06-2003 09:11									#40
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that's stupid

EDIT: it's also really, really dumb

	17-06-2003 09:12									#41
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I agree... that's why I don't believe in it

	17-06-2003 09:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Communism is Anarchy,

which is why I said to skywalker that his example isnt communism.

I still argue that family is a perfect example of working communism

	17-06-2003 09:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It is certainly true that in the past, there have been problems with labor-corporate relations, because corporate held all the cards. It is not true in our society today. We've got so many lawyers salivating at the prospect of nailing a company to the wall that the dynamics of power between the two groups is almost perfectly equalized, and if anything, has swayed the other direction.[QUOTE] The better lawyers mostly work for the big law firms that represent corporate America. Weakened labor law enforcement has also tilted power away from the unions and labor. And frankly, if a company does something wrong, it deserves to get nailed to the wall. [QUOTE]Companies live in fear of the next lawsuit, and you won't find many that would be willing to risk their very existence to squeeze a few more hours out of the rank and file. -=Vel=-

That's a misperception. Just look at the current Wal-Mart debacle where they've been saving money not though computerized inventory systems but by squeezing off the clock labor out of employees. Every factory I ever worked at prefered damanding overtime (usually out of temps and contractors) then hiring a whole new shift.

	17-06-2003 09:15									#44
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No, family is a perfect example of a dysfunctional dictatorship undergoing any number of revolts - commonly known as "children"

	17-06-2003 09:16									#45
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Granted, capitalism has had it's failures too, however, right now, *today* we can point to thriving capitalist-oriented nations as proof positive that it works. But where are the shining examples of Communism?

As I understand it, communism needs (and is all about) centralized control. That is at odds with co-equal branches of government.

One of the chief benefits of capitalism is its nimbleness. The market reacts swiftly to changing conditions.

On paper, so does a centrally planned economy, but only IF there is one overpowering branch of the government to control it. You introduce co-equal branches of the government to check each other, you destroy what little speed the command economy can muster, thanks to debate! (and let's face it, if you assign control of the economy to one specific branch of government in the system you outline, it will be the dominant power, with the rest being a shallow veneer, not having sufficient power to truly challenge those who whole the keys to the economic engine).

That's the breakdown then (or at least one of them). The communist system NEEDS that central control, but also needs power sharing governmental branches. Trouble is, if it gets both, then it is essentially paralyzed from day one, and that's not even beginning to go into the mess you create when you confiscate the wealth of the nation and have to figure out what to do with those who are....less than pleased about it.

If you want the system to work, and to be popularly accepted, there's gotta be a better way than banishment and mass murder to get the ball rolling, no?

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 09:17									#46
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parents arent leaders. If thats how your family works that must suck

	17-06-2003 09:18									#47
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It's like central vs. distributed intelligence/processing. For immensely fewer resources, you can have an equally/more powerful system that is more adaptable, resilient, and error-resistant. Like the supercomputer made out of PS2's

	17-06-2003 09:25									#48
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Communism only works in small tribes of humans. It's not really condusive to a macro-societal level. Family is an example of Communism, per se. It would be nice if all of humanity could be nice to each other and stuff, but it's not realistic or practical at all.

	17-06-2003 09:31									#50
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quote: Granted, capitalism has had it's failures too, however, right now, *today* we can point to thriving capitalist-oriented nations as proof positive that it works.

But what will happen when the whorld world is rich (read: level with western standard).
It will never happen under capitalism, because capitalism thrives on poverty.

	17-06-2003 09:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Granted, capitalism has had it's failures too, however, right now, *today* we can point to thriving capitalist-oriented nations as proof positive that it works.

Yes, but only under fairly specific political conditions. This shows that capitalism is at best one side of the equation.

quote: As I understand it, communism needs (and is all about) centralized control. That is at odds with co-equal branches of government.

Communism is about a centrally planed economy, not a central government dominated by a single branch.

quote: One of the chief benefits of capitalism is its nimbleness. The market reacts swiftly to changing conditions.

Works on paper, but not always in real life. Moreover, sometimes when this works, it screws people over. In the mid 90s, for instance, the invisible hand was pushing for IT training. Lot of people invested in IT training. Now the invisible hand is pushing for something else. Leaving all those IT people out in the cold. This is not to say a centrally planned economy might not be harsh - just that nimbleness is not always a virtue.

quote: On paper, so does a centrally planned economy, but only IF there is one overpowering branch of the government to control it. You introduce co-equal branches of the government to check each other, you destroy what little speed the command economy can muster, thanks to debate! (and let's face it, if you assign control of the economy to one specific branch of government in the system you outline, it will be the dominant power, with the rest being a shallow veneer, not having sufficient power to truly challenge those who whole the keys to the economic engine).

You are conflating two separate issues. Debate is usually about second order questions of values. Namely, what does society want and what are acceptable pathways for getting there? Do we invade Afghanistan or offer free college to poor children in Latin America (the Soviet Union actually did both)? Once we make these decisions, we leave the point A to point B nitty gritty to experts like engineers, social workers, economists, etc. This is essentially what the US gov does in the public sector.

BUt I don't buy the whole invisible hand of the market. It seems to me to be more dogmatic and religious than reasonable. Most things we create are created better the more reflectively we approach their creation. The more we engage in engineering. An engineered economy in this respect should be more able to deliver prosperity than an economy based on the faith of the invisible hand. In other words, I'll trust a shelter to not fall on me more if it was reflectively engineered over one that the invisible hand of the wind pushes together.

quote: If you want the system to work, and to be popularly accepted, there's gotta be a better way than banishment and mass murder to get the ball rolling, no? -=Vel=-

All you really need is acquiecence in a system. Most low income people feel this way about capitalism. They don't like the status quo, but figure its better than the alternative. But yes, no system will work if everyone is constantly rising up against it.

	17-06-2003 10:29									#52
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quote: Communism is about a centrally planned economy, not a central government dominated by a single branch.

Would you care to enlighten us as to how ELSE it could be centrally planned?

Yes, nimbleness is a virtue. It is ALWAYS good to be able to adapt to a situation. What you described was a FAILURE to properly adapt to a situation.

The "invisible hand of the market" is a simple tautology (and therefore true) "those that are most effective at achieving success will succeed". By very light regulation of the market, those who are more talented, efficient, etc. will succeed, thus preserving good ideas and strategies, whereas those who aren't talented or efficient will not succeed, thus getting rid of bad ideas and strategies. The market is sort of like a giant genetic algorithm - and genetic algorithms can even give better answers than those thought up specifically by someone trying to solve a problem. Distributed processing coupled with genetic algorithms gives efficient results with minimal overhead (i.e. worrying about government).

Would you trust a shelter more to follow you if a) it was specifically engineered by a person or b) it's design had been poor at first, but gradually all the kinks and flaws had been worked out?

	17-06-2003 10:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Communism only works in small tribes of humans. It's not really condusive to a macro-societal level. Family is an example of Communism, per se. It would be nice if all of humanity could be nice to each other and stuff, but it's not realistic or practical at all.

I believe this 100%.

	17-06-2003 10:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Works on paper, but not always in real life. Moreover, sometimes when this works, it screws people over. In the mid 90s, for instance, the invisible hand was pushing for IT training. Lot of people invested in IT training. Now the invisible hand is pushing for something else. Leaving all those IT people out in the cold. This is not to say a centrally planned economy might not be harsh - just that nimbleness is not always a virtue.

I'm in the process of making tons of money in IT. There are two types of failures in capitalist economies wrt IT. First, there's a shakedown period for new technologies and groups of technologies before they really stick (or wither into obscurity) - PC's themselves, CAD/CAM, Java, COM, .NET, etc. all hype and buzzwords, then everyone has to build something with them, then people who first move into those skills get way overpaid due to shortage of skilled labor. Then either the technology dies off, or a flood of people go into the field, driving wages down. It wasn't too long ago people were yammering about $100.00 per hour contracts for Java programmers, 130k a year plus bennies out the wazoo, because Java was the Next Big Thing^TM

The second one relates to the first (since the labor shortage, then high labor cost, then glut of inexperienced developers contributes to the mess) - the general failure of IT to deliver all the productivity gains it claims. The cost doesn't justify the investment.

The "get rich quick" crowd tends to get hurt, but the more careful crowd who looks around a bit to see if the technology is going to mature and have a lasting presence in the marketplace do better for themselves overall, whether they're workers or entrepreneurs.

The other side is you have to critically appraise whether or not you're really going to deliver value to the end user. Fantasies about new business models are cool, but in the market, you have to put up or shut up.

Central planning for that type of situation would be abysmal - you don't have the disinterested expertise, and you don't have the responsiveness to changing conditions. We'd still be in a text world, doing COBOL programming for IBM System 34's in a centrally planned IT world. It would work, but is it really what you want?

	17-06-2003 11:23									#55
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Glade to see new participants.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx To get the ball rolling good, here's a couple of questions for the communist crowd: 1) What's up with the whole "group before individual" thing?

It's common practice to talk about SOCIAL science in regard to SOCIETY. Arguing that a system is beneficial to individuals is not really social science. It's just a group of individuals high jacking the govt to exploit the masses.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 2) How will you prevent a dictatorial a$$ from siezing power when the "glorious revolution" comes. Isn't that what's happened in every other communist experiment that's been tried. So, if you're going to try it again, what will you do differently to ensure that it doesn't happen? Or, do you not really care that it'll happen?

I'll let others comment here. I believe in a strong central govt when there are enemies at the gates. No enemies, no dictator.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 3) Are the party bosses in the new communist regieme gonna have all the perks they had in the old one? If so, isn't that just a shade umm....contradictory. Workin' man's party and all that? I'm genuinely curious, although I don't see you guys changing my mind on it, I do love the debate! -=Vel=-

No

My focus is on capitalism though. It simply won't last. I enjoy talking about how a better communist system would be implemented, especially if people have ideas about economic planning. Really, in the future I don't see capitalism as an option. So I pick communism by default. Oh, and I hate those pigdog capitalists .

	17-06-2003 11:27									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Central planning for that type of situation would be abysmal - you don't have the disinterested expertise, and you don't have the responsiveness to changing conditions. We'd still be in a text world, doing COBOL programming for IBM System 34's in a centrally planned IT world. It would work, but is it really what you want?

And change is much slower with central planning. So slow change is really the only problem, and I wouldn't really consider it a problem.

	17-06-2003 11:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Glade to see new participants. It's common practice to talk about SOCIAL science in regard to SOCIETY. Arguing that a system is beneficial to individuals is not really social science. It's just a group of individuals high jacking the govt to exploit the masses.

Guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Dzherzhinski, Beria, yadda yadda... somehow, those dedicated servants of the Party always come out ahead.

quote: I'll let others comment here. I believe in a strong central govt when there are enemies at the gates. No enemies, no dictator.

There are always enemies, comrade - counterrevolutionaries are everywhere.

quote: My focus is on capitalism though. It simply won't last.

You're right. Then again, the human species and the solar system won't last either. Capitalism will make it about that long.

	17-06-2003 12:00									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You're right. Then again, the human species and the solar system won't last either. Capitalism will make it about that long.

Well communism will save humanity so don't worry about that.

	17-06-2003 12:01									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And change is much slower with central planning. So slow change is really the only problem, and I wouldn't really consider it a problem.

Inertia, not slow change, and if you want to wind back the IT clock, then you can kiss things like the Human Genome Project and most other new technology, including internet, goodbye for decades. We wouldn't be talking to each other in a communist system, unless we had some evil capitalists and their innovations to sponge off of.

One of the most fun times I've had with toys was touring Soviet navy ships in San Diego. An Udaloy and a Sovremenny, pride of the Soviet navy, newest ship classes, and 20-25 years behind US technology.

Keep up the good work, comrades.

	17-06-2003 12:01									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well communism will save humanity so don't worry about that.

Tell that to the sun and the laws of physics.