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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Why do you think we won't have the internet?
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I'm talking in the hypothetical if the 20th Century had been the age of global communism. You yourself said that the pace of change was "inefficient" and "a con for capitalism" - so you've revealed an inbuilt bias against radical change.
Now, tell me, comrade, I need a large talent pool of electronics engineers and applied physicists, communicatins and RF engineers, and billions of rubles to develop technologies that might one day be useful. And just think, if we're successful, we could put a computer in every apartment, and people could communicate all over the world free of government, er, um, scratch that. Oh, we can share porn, er, um, Comrade, what is the party's position on porn? Oh, we could download and share music - oh, but nobody buys from the state music stores since we passed that rule about artistic expression having to advance the goals of socialism and the party. 
Central planning (even in a capitalist system - the whole "management by committee" syndrome) always tends towards caution, conservatism, and inertia. The insistence on "efficient" allocation of resources is fundamentally stifling, because "efficient" is often seen as more of what you've already got, not building something new and unproven that might or might not work.
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Technology will advance at a rate that we choose for it to advance.
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Just like that, huh. So, since we "choose" the rate of advance of technology, how come Captain Kirk ain't already out there chasing after one of every kind of alien woman known?
Developing technology requires risks - risks of failure, risks of "inefficieny" and it requires vision, not inertia.
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I just don't see that it is efficient for the system to make so many changes in organization. That is a con for capitalism, not a pro. There are a lot of resources and training wasted in such a dynamic system.
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"So many changes" are voluntary. In my office building, there's somebody downstairs still running Win95 on what looks like a 486 or maybe Pentium box.  They decided it still works for them, so they're not interested in spending resources to upgrade. Bully for them. I upgrade my non-infrastructural stuff on average every six to nine months. It's more critical to what I do to change. The advantage to lack of central planning is that enterprises are able to pursue strategies tailored to their perceived needs and to their resources.
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We won't need any warships in the future |
Warships are nothing more than a collection of applied technologies and engineering. I have to hand it to the USSR, though, they had replaced vacuum tubes with transistors for this generation of ship.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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MtG beat me to it cos I couldn't get back on 'poly ("server too busy" messages), but I wholeheartedly agree with him.
And where is it written *anywhere* that a person who values the strengths and uniqueness of individuality, shuns suffering when he finds it.
In a society that celebrates individuality, people are free to choose what to think, how to live, and what to do. That freedom extends to the ability to freely ignore suffering if they so choose (not doing anything more than pay their fair share of taxes, a portion of that money being used in turn to help the less fortunate).
It also means that person is free to choose to throw himself and his talents at the problem, and the results can be (and are) astonishing. You get a much more passionate, determined response that way than you do when the order to care for the less fortunate is dictated by the state and backed up by the barrel of a gun. Or would you disagree with that too?
Also, if your revolution began tomorrow, no, you would not have the Internet. You couldn't afford to have the internet. The reason you couldn't afford to have it is because it would provide a nearly untraceable means for all those dangerous subversives to coordinate and plan for your authoritarian system's removal.
On a related topic, much has been made of the resources "wasted" as the capitalist-based economy shifts gears in response to changing conditions.
It is interesting to me, however, that no mention is made of the massive wastage that must occur in order to set up the all-encompassing, monolithic watchdog agency that will churn out party propaganda, and look over everyone's shoulder to ensure that no one is thinking independent ("dangerous") thoughts. To check up on everyone to make sure everything is nice and equal, and to make sure that nobody is persuing any form of evil, corruptive capitalism.
That undertaking would require mass thousands, if not millions of full time "Watchers." State appointed babysitters with the power to make you disappear if you show signs of not towing the party line.
Is that not a waste of resources? Could those resources be spent elsewhere to better effect?
But under the system you propose, it'll never happen, because again, it's about control.
You need it to survive, and the maintenance OF that control will come first. Not the welfare of the masses you claim to represent, but the maintenance of your own position at the top of the food chain.
That comes first, and if there's anything left over, THEN we can give something to the masses.
Tell me....what's wrong with letting people live as they wish? Where is the crime in that? What's wrong with allowing people to make their own choices and accepting the consequences (or rewards) OF those choices? It's called *personal* responsibility, and *personal* empowerment.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Kid, that was among the most lucid posts you have made to date. Congratulations. (and I mean that sincerely).
However, a couple of problems with your theory:
1) Who do you think the "consumer" is? Is it not the case that Consumer = Worker (or "common man" as you put it in your post). Thus, given that companies need to have a market for their products....given that companies need to have consumers who can pay for their products, does that not suggest that there is a limit to which they can cut their costs in the manner you describe? Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, companies would see perfect productivity when they can at last utterly eliminate their labor costs (not all of their costs, mind you, because the automation they replace humans with does have costs of its own), and at that moment, the market for whatever they are making dries up to nothing (because no one has a job, no one is making money, and no one can afford whatever it is they're selling).
If you actually believe that this is where the economy is heading....if you believe it in your heart of hearts, then I would put forth that you did not learn what your economics professors were attempting to teach you.
2) Yes, we (the common man) SHARE the burden of the cost of training for new skills. So does the company. If you have ever run a business, you would know that training expense is a big, and rising cost for companies. New systems are developed and implemented, and the employees must be trained to use those new systems effectively. Who pays for that? I have never worked for a company in my life that forced its employees to pay for their own training (there are reimbursement programs sure, if you want to go above and beyond what is required for your job, but that is not the same thing).
3) The point mentioned just above. Most major companies have a vested interest in keeping their employees rather than watching them drift to the competition. Thus, many, if not most companies have programs where you can take classes and get certifications, update your skill set and the company will pay for it. Does that not run counter to what you just said (ie - "You" pay the full burden of the cost of acquiring new skills).
4) Acquiring job skills that the market wants is not a matter of luck. It is a matter of determing what the market wants right now, and acquiring those skills. Where does luck enter the equation in skill acquisition?
5) No comments on the other stuff, I see....
6) Even IF at some point, a new social contract needs to be drawn up, would it not be wiser to simply start from scratch, than rely on a worn out, century old approach that has never had a successful test run in its existence? I think I would rather take my chances on something entirely new but untested, than with the rickety old boat that Communism represents.
-=Vel=-
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
In response to the claim that the recent gains in productivity are beneficial to society I would like to say that people who believe this are not sympathetic to those who pay the heavy cost of these gains in productivity. As MtG pointed out only workers who have the most up to date skills are employable. |
I don't know if this is a reading comprehension issue, or an issue of lack of ethics, but I would appreciate you not distorting or blatantly mischaracterizing statements of mine. 
There are people in the work force who specialize in all sorts of things from digging ditches, to flipping burgers, to bolting doors on GM cars. I have never said, and it's an absurdity, that "only workers who have the most up to date skills are employable." If workers want to maximize their value, they need to improve skills and adapt to the market - that does not mean "most up to date" or that everyone is suddenly unemployed and unemployable because of the next new technology. 
quote:
Even if you are only 5-10 years out of college you may be downsized. Why? Because the corporation you work for has to cut it’s costs due to competition.
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Or, on the flip side, you can quit your job and go elsewhere at will. You can also be promoted, or get better jobs for yourself.
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Probably their competitors have already made these productivity gains. If the company you work for doesn’t cut their costs they will go out of business.
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This is an oversimplification, but inefficiency and stagnation don't work well in a capitalist economy, no?
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Who pays the cost of this productivity gain? You do.
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Maybe. Or maybe you do something better. The choice is yours.
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You did what you were suppose to do. You went to college and trained yourself. You worked hard. You didn’t do anything wrong, but now you are unemployed. Your skills are outdated.
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Well, if you decided that four years of college was supposed to be a ticket to lifetime employment without any change in your skills, you were ****ing stupid. There's such a thing as continuing education, there's also the process of acquiring experience in what you do, and there's also the concept of considering the likely future market for what you do. If you're a specialist in repairing black and white vacuum tube TV's, and you don't want to be bothered with that newfangled solid-state stuff, then you're making a choice.
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You can’t get a job, because the kids that just got out of school have better skills than you do. You’re not unskilled. You just don’t have the right skills.
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(a) My present work (consulting and entrepreneurial) doesn't involve a single specific direct work skill I learned in college or in my early jobs.
(b) Young punks just out of college have no experience, no business sense, and a whole bunch of other limiters. They're so inexperienced with the world, they might even believe in communism. 
(c) If a 43 year old like me is trying to compete with a 23 year old for an entry level technology position, there's something really wrong with this picture. They apply for junior level software engineer type stuff. You're right, nobody would hire me for that - and I wouldn't apply for it. If I'm going to hit the pavement, I'm looking at project management, lead software architect, CIO or CTO type positions. And yeah, the kid undoubtedly knows Java and J2EE more than I'll ever care to, or need to.
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Who gets the benefits of this productivity? The company gets a profit and the consumer gets a cheaper price. Some people think greater profit is a fine objective in itself. Maybe, it is, if you own a company or lots of stock. But what about the consumer surplus. That’s different because that is what closes the sale on productivity for most people. We have been told that productivity advancements will improve the standard of living since at least 1890. That lower prices will stimulate consumer demand for more products and everyone will benefit.
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Are you denying that standards of living in the capitalist world have risen across the board since 1890?
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Unfortunately, the recent increases in productivity are having a profound effect on demand. For every new job created for kids just getting out of college with the new skills that are needed to work with the new technology many more jobs are lost. That’s how they cut costs. Their labor costs go way down. The cost of the lost jobs is greater than the benefit of lower prices. That is the cause of permanent technological unemployment.
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Yeah, boy, damn that Jethro Tull and Eli Whitney straight away to hell.
OK, so you're an admitted Luddite.
BTW, if every new job coming in is eliminating several jobs, and leaving people permanently unemployable, why do we have an unemployment rate in the sixes in a recession, as opposed to in the 20-30% range?
Ooops, seems there's not quite as many job eliminations or permanent unemployed.
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People who don’t have jobs because of permanent technological unemployment should not be held responsible for their unemployment and should not have to pay the cost of productivity gains while corporations and those lucky enough to have jobs reap all the benefits.
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Oooh, now you're lucky enough to have jobs. Ooooh.
And yes, let's help the working man by doubling the price of everything and prohibiting productivity improvements that reduce the number of jobs. The USSR tried it, BTW.
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The rate of productivity improvement is accelerating while job creation is falling. Some other social contract must be created to deal with permanent technological unemployment or the system will fail. It’s time for the common man to start reaping the benefits of technology instead of just the rich. |
Do you have evidence of long-term trends, or is this just from the Marxist Book of Common Cant?
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, companies would see perfect productivity when they can at last utterly eliminate their labor costs (not all of their costs, mind you, because the automation they replace humans with does have costs of its own), and at that moment, the market for whatever they are making dries up to nothing (because no one has a job, no one is making money, and no one can afford whatever it is they're selling).
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The ball is in your court to counter this.
MtG,
The long run trend for unemployment is upward. Of course, we have been lucky to have job creation due to specifics, like military build up. The job creation during the 90s was due to the production of capital goods, computers etc.. So the low unemployment during the 90s is going to mean very high unemployment for this decade as corporations continue learning how to make the best use of the new technologies. If you look at the long run trend since the 60s and project that into the next decade we will see unemployment rates at about 7-8% on average for the decade.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Oh, and by the way....what will you think if your unemployment predictions for this decade don't happen? My guess is that it will not dampen the fervor of your beliefs in the slightest....we just "got lucky" is all, yes?
And btw, the ultimate irony (getting back to my authoritarian posts for a moment) is that Marx could not have written what he wrote in a place that squelched the individual. He NEEDED that sort of environment to come up with what he came up with, and his own social model would firmly put the brakes on any further such thinking (as it would threaten the official party dogma).
Since innovation stems from free, creative thinking, your communist utopia will have to rely on external populations (ones that are not under the communist thumb) for ideas and innovation. Some of it can come by pointing a gun at the scientists and ordering them to create or face death, yes, but as we have seen with the latest and greatest soviet technology, it runs 2-3 decades behind where we are, and that's probably a good indicator.
If the system were ever made global, and there were no free-thinking, individualistic societies to draw from after the fact, the whole system could easily sink into a completely non-innovative quagmire.
-=Vel=-
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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Howdy all:
First, ot JohnT's definition. There is a fundamanetal incompleteness to the second definition given, due to the fact that Marxist-Leninism was not the only form of communism out there, nor was orthodox marxism the same as Marxist-Leninism. Under JohnT's .2 def., Maoist could not be called Communism (and thus What is china?)
And what about part 1? I don;t see many of the "defenders of capitalism" tackling it: instead you stick to attacks (justified) agains the creations of marixst-Leninist ideology.
As for Capitalism and the individual: there is a hitch in this folks: Capitalism thrives if individual are free to chose, that is true, but (as I have said all time before) the market is just a means to an end, and that end is the creation of more wealth. What actually happens to individuals in a capitalist system is utterly immaterial. Capitalism folks is the ultimate example of a system meant to benefit the whole without regard to the individual. Who cares if you (a single human being) is unemployed, hungry, dying of disease, whatever..as long as your actions and those of others conform to market ideology, the whole will get wealthier, the whole benefits.
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cinch
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
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These arguments always seem to spiral in the strangest directions.
The way I see it: Capitalism is flawed, but functional. Communism is ideal, but impractical. Is either one better than the other? I can't say for sure. I hold allegiance to neither.
But I can say that, for all the praise of individuality and self-determination by capitalists, they sure don't seem to take into account the exploitation of overseas workers. Many of these workers live under communist or dictatorial regimes, yet they are vital to the functioning of Western capitalism today. If you take away those workers, I'd argue that the Western economy and way of life would take a turn for the worse.
Capitalism works perfectly if the goal is to reward those who are already advantaged (and I don't even mean millionaires, I'm talking just anyone who's lucky enough to live in the developed world). But that's not the goal of capitalism; the goal of capitalism is to reward those who deserve it, those who work the hardest. And how often to Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, etc. labourers get rewarded? A pay raise? A promotion? The vast, vast majority don't. They work 12 hours a day for 50 cents, and if they don't work hard enough, they will suffer for it.
How do these people fit in to the ideal capitalist's world?
Secondary point: As for all the ingenuity/technology stuff: I agree that capitalism is much more conducive to technological expansion and progression, but I have to ask myself, at what point does the importance of technology surpass that of humanity? I'm all for capitalism, but I have to admit that my conscience leads me to feel empathy for the foreign workers and slaves, who are so integral to our globalised supereconomy, yet have a quality of life that a Canadian/American/British/etc. vagrant would be ashamed to call his own.
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17-06-2003 22:18
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