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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You sure can save money. In fact it's the most natural thing to do. You have to think if you want to spend it. The money is otherwise automatically saved. |
isnt that the whole point of this massive cultural machine pushing consumerism 24/7? yes we have a culture of consumerism that helps us maintain this satanic circle of viciousness that drives us. but just cuz its not natural dont mean we haven't gotten very good at it.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Yes, consumerism has benefited the economy greatly, but I don't think it has done enough. We seem to keep reaching a point where we are to far in debt and then the economy falters. |
yes we lack control. hopefully we can improve restraint/control whilst not depowering the machine.
tho on a side note it is depressing that our economically projected future is that the vast majority of human effort will be spend supplying goods for the rest of humanity in basically a service type of way(movies/cars/stereos/massages etc...).
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Hey, I'm all for trying new stuff! And in fact, Communism HAS been tried.
Again....and.....again....and.....AGAIN.
After a while though (especially when you are dealing with a system that causes death and suffering for millions of people with no sign that it'll ever get any better than that), there's a point where you say: "Hmmm....well, I guess THAT didn't work!" and move on to try something else.
Capitalism was tried. There were bumps along the way (big bumps even. bumps that caused suffering for a lot of people), but NEVER in any capitalist experiment did we see the rise of a dictator who condemned hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths for disagreeing with the machinery he was implementing. OTOH, that's....pretty much standard fare for implementing communism. It's a bit different than say, continuing to experiment with different filaments for the lightbuld, cos nobody's dying. You can keep doing that for months on end till you get it right, and who cares? But when you implement communism and sign the death warrants of another couple million....it matters.
So at what point.....after how many failed attempts do you simply admit that it doesn't work as advertised?
IMO, we reached that point a good bit ago, which is why when your revolution comes (assuming that it does), I'll be right there in line to resist it.
It's a dead horse.
You can drag it across the finish line, sure....but why?
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Not saying that it is. Again though, if we're gonna debate the two, then we have to look at the history of both systems.
Capitalism has caused misery and suffering. That's true.
Capitalism has "sprung up" under a variety of governmental forms, sometimes flourishing, sometimes withering.
Where capitalism has taken root and thrived (most spectacularly, when paired with democratically-minded governments), it has *dramatically* improved living conditions for the people living under the system.
Communism, on the other hand, has always "sprung up" with a very particular KIND of government....the centralized, authoritarian kind. Not once or twice, not not and then, but EVERY SINGLE TIME we trot it out.
Communism begins with the revolution. The siezure of property. There aren't many polite ways to do that. You can ask, sure, but odds are overwhelmingly against the people you ask "oh, by the way, can we take your stuff?" saying yes to that.
So...since siezure implies force anyway, you....use force.
That starts the ball rolling.
If they don't give it up, they get...gone.
Then of course, having come to power by way of force of arms, having determined that a centralized economy is the best way to proceed, there's the question of who will control said economy.
We could pick a random person each year and let him do it as an independent third party agency, but that's a disaster waiting to happen, so no.
But, we've got the revolutionary army right here (the one that took everybody's stuff), so the situation is just peachy perfect to set up a centralized, authoritarian government (ostensibly "just" to manage the economy, but we all know what happens next, don't we?)
And then, having set the government up to "run the economy," having dispensed with the first round of dealing with the dissenters (what are their names? Don't ask....it's harder to stomach if we know their names.....harder to justify what we did....just look at them as a "whole group," Comrade), we have to make sure that OTHER revolutionaries don't come along behind us and undo our good work, don't we? That means a stronger state machine. One that's filled up with "Watchers" who can, in their benevolence, look down on the general population like a shephard watching his sheep, both to ensure that none of them think counter-revolutionary thoughts, and to ensure that the evils of capitalism do not begin to take root.
If they do....well, the solution that started the revolution worked pretty well, so no need to change things now....let's just off them too, right?
If it is true that the communist crowd has learned from history, then one would think that the communist revolutions seen after Soviet Russia's would have played out differently.
Did they?
Nope.
And in the absence of ANY sort of explanation about what would be done differently "this time," why should we expect the "next revolution" to be any different?
Is that....rational? 
-=Vel=-
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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Yes, and socialiam marches on gloriously for billions of people. 
Marx used pseudoscience to show that 19th century industrial laissez faire capitalism was nasty. Gee, he figured out something that just about everyone knew.
Trouble is, "capitalism" has evolved and is continuing to evolve, while Marxists thump their Good Book, awating their Revelation, the "historical inevitability" of the second coming, er, um, revolution. 
The only addons to Marxist theory that have been put into practice are variations of Leninist notions of the Party and totalitarianism.
Of course, it's much easier to sit and ***** about the perceived injustices of the present system than it is to get involved in it and improve things. Just don't use up too much oxygen or take up too much space, y'all are wasting resources.
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19-06-2003 11:01
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