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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Well, now we know why if communists win an election there might be blood ... |
Well, we know communists will never win an election - they can't even beat out the Libertarians for that half percent or so in the polls.
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Actually, the government has wise lattitude to condemn your property for eminent domain.
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Yes, by reimbursement at fair market value, subject to judicial proceedings, the right to call independent expert witnesses (appraisers and such). I've dealt with eminent domain actions numerous times, since I work around the utility field. In fact, legislatively franchised private utilities generally have eminent domain rights with respect to facilities dedicated to serve the public. They too are under the same judicial rules. Seizure without due process violates the Federal Constitution.
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Or the government can exercise its police power in ways that greatly limit the use of your property or reduce its value without compensating you.
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Zoning, development restrictions, etc. are in a different category entirely from seizures or eminent domain actions, but again, they are litigable issues.
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Your intellectual property? If the government declares necessity, it can bust your patent and not compensate you. The government can reduce your copyright's length of time. |
Again, under very limited and precisely defined situations, subject to judicial proceedings and due process rights.
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Even under our capitalist system, your property as at the mercy of the government. And only a total taking will likely force them to pay compensation - and then only if its not under necessity.
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"At the mercy" - nice hyperbole, but hardly suited to the reality of the situation. I don't know where you live in the US, but you're a little behind the times on the law - there is plenty of precedent in numerous states for changes in zoning laws or discretionary regulatory action being compensable at law.
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In fact, property - private, communal, whatever - is just a form of government regulation in the first place. Property is not naturally occuring, or parceled out by God.
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Property ownership is a recognition of a naturally occuring phenomena. When I pick up a piece of rock and make a stone tool, that's my tool, unless I decide to give it to you or let you use it. Take it from me, and if you don't give it back, I'll spear you and mount your head on a spear to let the neighbors know I don't like people taking my stone tools. 
Some primitive cultures were communal, some were mixes of individual "stuff" and communal stuff, but the general notion evolved that it was a lot easier to function as a group if there were consistent notions as to who had what. The reason wasn't that "government regulation" created property rights. Your spear arm or club arm did that. Goverment regulation occured because it was a smoother system of managing those issues than de facto trial by combat without rules.
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Its parameters are established by the state, and it is enforced by the state. Private property is only the assignment of entitlements to private individuals. WHo does the initial assignment and enforces the system thereafter? The state. "Your" property is only yours because the community has decided to allow such entitlements to exist.
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This system has been around in well documented form for over two millenia, and again, evolved out of a desire to reduce the social cost of pre-existing private enforcement by blood.
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This is another example of libertarianism just plain getting things wrong. Property is just another government regulation in the first place.
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Actually, this is just the commie pseudo-philosophy conveniently ignoring the real purposes of the original formation of the state, to instead create a world view where the state itself is the be-all and end-all source of all things, and the citizens thereof are subservient to the state.
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In other words, your saying if the community decides to reassign entitlements, you'll start killing people? |
If "the community" decides to say "**** the system of rights, privileges, participatory government, due process, etc., we're all just going to help ourselves to what of yours we want, and tell you what we think we'll deign to let you keep" then I'll be stackin' 'em like cordwood. Bring plenty of firepower, and a strong faith in the mercy of God, because you'll need both.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Okay, even though you have YET to show me a quote, I'll be a gentleman and go first.
It's got nothing to do with your socio-economic status and everything to do with the winkies that you post while you explain why you should be rich while others should suffer from poverty.
~Quote from Kid - This thread, previous page~
That was simple enough.
Your turn.
-=Vel=-
PS: Yes, I know the term "implication" very well, though I'm not sure you do. If you did, then you'd understand all the *implications* of the glorious revolution you keep sayin' you're all for. I get the feeling that's why you're so keen on ignoring those parts of the debate. It's one thing to say something "feel-goodish" like "let the workers take control of the means of production!", but when you start getting down to the nuts and bolts of how that happens, you have to start thinking in terms of death squads, ripping families out of their homes in the middle of the night, unmarked graves in secluded areas....sorta puts a whole different light on it, yes? Maybe makes you a bit queasy? Good. It should. So should a paraphrase by one of the heroes of the revolution, Uncle Joe Stalin, who said something along the lines of kill one person, it’s murder, kill a hundred thousand, it’s a statistic. Way to go, Joe!
Now....you're turn.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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And besides that, since you posted your example, allow me to comment on it:
man who has been downsized,
Yep. That happens in a capitalist society.
who suffers from depression and or psychological morbidity
Can result from being downsized...at least the depression side of it, sure.
shoots his wife and kids, goes into his former place of employment and shoots everyone he can find who doesn’t get away, then turns the gun on himself and commits suicide, because he believes that his total self-worth is measured by his ability to earn money in the capitalist system.
Here's where you're full of sh*t. If a guy who gets depressed (for ANY reason) and goes on a shooting spree, he's got problems that extend WAY beyond his desire to be an able bread-winner in an economic system, no matter what it is! Of course, that doesn't fit well with your argument, so you blissfully ignore it.
Still sounds like you da one living in da fantasy world.
-=Vel=-
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
No need for a quote. You have been arguing that the whole time. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be in here defending capitalism. Everyone in here defending capitalism believes that.
Let's just call it an obvious perception. So why don't you show why we are seeing things incorectly? |
Well I dont want to oppress anyone to get rich. In fact I am just happy to be in the middle class and work for the things that I want instead of some government giving to me. And if I do get rich somehow it will be because I worked for it not because I oppressed anyone.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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1) You have FAR too little faith in the power of the individual if you think that a psyche can be so easily conditioned or shattered (not surprising, given your political beliefs, which belittle the individual anyway, and relegate him to a position of unimportance)
2) Yes, you may be able to scour psych text books and FIND a case like the one you mentioned. Statistically, however, such cases where the individual has lost all sense of self save for how it is defined by his/her economic status are such a tiny statistical minority that they are irrelevant to your "whole group" philosophy in any case. They simply do not exist in legions as you are suggesting. Of course, you don't have to believe me. Do your own research.
3) Becoming depressed...even having a mental breakdown is a far, far different creature from snapping and going on a shooting spree. Again, anyone who does that for ANY reason has problems that extend way beyond self image. If you can't see that, then there really IS no point in further debate.
-=Vel=-
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20-06-2003 10:10
the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. 
True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).
Sure, I was tempted to respond in kind, but if I had, I'd be "projecting" or somesuch....
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