19-06-2003 02:10									#31
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I wasn't speaking of a legal obligation now was I? I was speaking of the duplicity of how government works. They encourage us to do one thing and then penalize us for it. Why shouldn't my children (which I created) not get the benefit of my wealth (which I created)?

Blasphemer!

Penalize you? How can they possibly do that? You are dead if the issue is your estate. They can;t possibly penalize you now, as you no longer exists (not in this plain of existance at least). As for why your children should not benefit from your wealth? Why should they? They might be your decendents, but they did nothing to earn that money other than by accident of thier birth, and by your affections. After all, estates do NOT go immidietly to children at all: in fact, if you hated your kids, they will never get a penny of it.

The government taxes large gifts of money. Getting an estate at best can be called a gift from beyond: I fail to see how the status of the gft giver should affect the tax issues.

Let your ids go out and earn their own estates. That will benefit them and the whyole a lot more than letting wealth sit and stagnate.

	19-06-2003 02:12									#32
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quote: Mommy and/or Daddy earned that money... Jr. didn't. Junior is getting money... and hence, should be taxed.

Why? Why does the government have more right to the money than Jr.? It wasn't Jr. who was receiving the money as it was coming in, that was the government.

Say Daddy and Mommy made 200,000 per year. Th government already took 80,000 of that already, so they are left with 120,000 a year. Now the government tells me that if I don't die broke they are going to take another 60,000! So, I invest it so that I can make up for that 60,000, but I never can because the more I earn the more the government takes! What gvies the government the right to take from me what I earn, and then to take more from me if I don't spend it before I die? What the hey!? That, my friend, IS double taxation.

You have bothered to look at from only oneside of the coin. While I see what you mean in that it is "new" money for junior, but it is old money for the dead or dying... money they already were taxed on, and now the government is dictating how it will be spent... The whole estate tax is basically a wealth tax (communist).

quote: Capital gains is the same thing. It's not double taxation. Their money is MAKING money. The additional income was never taxed

Exactly, income tax is on earning money not making it, that is what capital gains is for... Capital gains is at about 35% not 49%. Also, capital gains has a reduction after holding an investment for x number of years (to a minimum of 17% I believe). Income tax can't be handled like that. If estate tax were to be handled like capital gains, then Daddy could bundle all that dead money into a trust and make me sit on it until it matures to remove it at 17%... Yet, you can't, because the minute someone dies the government is there looking for a check at the wake.

	19-06-2003 02:14									#33
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"“There are those who claim that an estate tax is un-American, but I believe that the idea of an inherited upper-class is un-American,” --Seth Goldman, owner of a small business "Honest Tea" in Bethesda, Maryland

	19-06-2003 02:17									#34
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House

Get rid of the death tax!!

	19-06-2003 02:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Say Daddy and Mommy made 200,000 per year. Th government already took 80,000 of that already, so they are left with 120,000 a year. Now the government tells me that if I don't die broke they are going to take another 60,000! So, I invest it so that I can make up for that 60,000, but I never can because the more I earn the more the government takes! What gvies the government the right to take from me what I earn, and then to take more from me if I don't spend it before I die? What the hey!? That, my friend, IS double taxation.

Ahem, but since an estate does not start paying estate taxes until it is over 600,000 in value, how does this make any sense? Add to his the fact that you are dead, and hence you have nothing to worry about. It is your children or whomever inherits this money who will pay the tax, and their income was not in that tax form you sent in, nor part of the income you reported. Where lies the double taxation of your income?

quote: You have bothered to look at from only oneside of the coin. While I see what you mean in that it is "new" money for junior, but it is old money for the dead or dying... money they already were taxed on, and now the government is dictating how it will be spent... The whole estate tax is basically a wealth tax (communist).

You don;t have to give the estate to anyone, you know? Make it part of some perpetual trust fund that lives for ever, and the wealth will just accumulate.

The dying could always tranfers titles and deeds to thier inheritors prior to when they die. as for the dead: they have no rights, and they don;t pay taxes anyomore either.

	19-06-2003 02:32									#36
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quote: House Get rid of the death tax!!

HURRAY FOR THE SUPER RICH!!

**** 99.7% of AMERICA!

	19-06-2003 02:33									#37
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Yep, I back fairness, Sava .

	19-06-2003 02:34									#38
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Whether you believe in or do not believe in the estate tax, the budget is in a state of crisis with HUGE deficits. Bush is continueing to cut taxes, make the deficit bigger and bigger for YEARS to come. It is alright to have some deficits here and there, but at this rate the nation will be in a record amount of debt.

The bottom line is, the money has to come from somewhere. Eventually these deficits will catch up with us and something will HAVE to be taxed more. Does not matter where it is from, it all comes from the same place.

	19-06-2003 02:36									#39
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quote: Yep, I back fairness, Sava .

Sure you do. In fact, I think you should go to your local unemployment office and explain to everyone your ideas on fairness. Explain that their childrens health and education needs to suffer so some multi-millionaire's kid can have even more money.

	19-06-2003 02:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yep, I back fairness, Sava .

Fairness he? OK: everyone should have access to the same tax loophoes the rich get to use! And ALL estates should be taxed, not just the biggest ones.

There you go Imran, fairness.

	19-06-2003 02:37									#41
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Wow...just imagine, people keeping what they earned! I'm glad they finally cut the death tax, serves the government right for trying to run our economy.

	19-06-2003 02:38									#42
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I'm all for helping the poor, but I don't see why the government should take your money. Sure, Jr. didnt earn any of it, but the person who made that money can give it to whoever they want to. There is no tax on birthday presents, or gift certificates, and there shouldnt be any on estate. helping the poor doesnt necessairly mean hurting the rich.
If the government cut military spending by $100 Bn, cut all subsidies to corporations both domestic and foreign, lowered all tariffs, and cancel all aid to developed countries (like germany, france, and Israel) we'd have plenty of money to invest at home namely in helping the poor and improving education, creating a state run healthcare and insurance program (with private healthplans and insurance available.)

	19-06-2003 02:43									#43
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quote: Fairness he? OK: everyone should have access to the same tax loophoes the rich get to use! And ALL estates should be taxed, not just the biggest ones. There you go Imran, fairness.

You can do it that way... I'll back the contrary way.. no estates should be taxed. And everyone does basically have access to the tax loopholes the rich get to use.

	19-06-2003 03:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Blasphemer!

quote: The government taxes large gifts of money.

Didn't say I agreed with this eithier.

quote: That will benefit them and the whyole a lot more than letting wealth sit and stagnate.

I doubt that they would stuff it in a mattress...but they might.

quote: and by your affections.

This is, after all, why I am trying to leave them something.

	19-06-2003 03:03									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava By supporting politicians that are destroying these valuable, working social programs, you are effectively saying they are bad.

Sava, because I support many of the things that a politician does, it does not mean I support all things that he does. In politics you must sometimes chose the lesser of the two evils.

	19-06-2003 03:17									#46
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Ahem: just for the record:
The dead have no rights, period. Whatever wealth has been accumulated by an individual who now happens to be dead is a choice society makes, since the person with the rights no longer exists.

quote: This is, after all, why I am trying to leave them something.

If your estate is big enough to fall under the estate tax, they will certainly have somehting.

As for your fairness issue Imran: since when are you an advoctae of fairness? The etstae tax is just one of those things the rich must deal with. Another way to fainess, allow no such thing as estates.

	19-06-2003 03:21									#47
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standing in the way of progressive reform that would help millions sounds pretty evil to me... what do the dem's do that's more evil than that? getting bJ's from interns?

	19-06-2003 03:23									#48
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The Death tax, has almost totally wiped out family farms.

The farmers only asset is their land. They borrow against it all their lives and basically survive season to season. But when they die, they can't pass it on to their children because their children (many that have helped dad work the land their entire life) can't afford the taxes, so the farm gets broken up and purchased by corporate farms.

If you think these farmers are the super rich in America, you're just blind.

The number of acres tilled by family farmers has decreased almost every year in the last 3 decades.

But if you want all of America's farmland controlled by evil giant corporations........................fine, but don't say that removing the death tax is only going to help the super rich. A lot of honest hard working American Farmers will also be helped.

RAH

	19-06-2003 03:26									#49
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RAH:

quote: Farms and family-owned business assets account for less than four percent of all assets in taxable estates valued at less than $5 million. Only a small fraction of the estate tax is paid on the value of farms and small family businesses. Family-owned businesses and farms are eligible for special treatment under current law, including a higher exemption. The total exemption for most estates that include a family-owned business is $1.3 million in 2001, rather than $675,000. A couple can exempt up to $2.6 million of an estate that includes a family-owned business or farm. Still another feature of current law allows deferral of estate tax payments for up to 14 years when the value of a family-owned business or farm accounts for at least 35 percent of an estate, with interest charged at rates substantially below market rates. Claims that family-owned businesses have to be liquidated to pay estate taxes imply that most of the value of the estate is tied up in the businesses. But businesses or farms constitute the majority of the assets in very few estates that include family-owned businesses or farms. A Treasury Department analysis of data for 1998 shows that in only 776 of the 47,482 estates that were taxable that year — or just 1.6 percent of taxable estates — did family-owned businesses assets (such as closely held stock, non-corporate businesses, or partnerships) equal at least half of the gross estate. In only 642 estates — 1.4 percent of the taxable estates — did farm assets, or farm assets and farm real estate, equal at least half of the gross estate.

from the http://www.cbpp.org/5-25-00tax.htm I posted earlier...

	19-06-2003 03:27									#50
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plus, if it's small farms you're worried about... then lobby for the removal of subsidies to large corporate farms... you'll get large Republican opposition

	19-06-2003 03:30									#51
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quote: As for your fairness issue Imran: since when are you an advoctae of fairness?

Everyone on every side is an advocate of fairness... they just see what is fair in different ways.

quote: The dead have no rights, period.

That's a non-issue, btw... because as soon as the guy dies, his estate and assets are transfered over. In property law you can't have a period where no one owns the estate at all. If the guy has issue or a will, then it automatically transfers. If he doesn't have either, then it automatically escheats to the state.

	19-06-2003 04:05									#52
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Bye bye, budget surplus!

	19-06-2003 04:06									#53
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They say you can't take it with you. The american government is just the enforcer.

	19-06-2003 04:07									#54
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quote: they just see what is fair in different ways.

Absolutely correct. Some people are concerned with fairness for 0.3% of America, others care about the other 99.7%

	19-06-2003 04:13									#55
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I don't really have much to say about this except that the greed and irresponsibility makes me sick.

	19-06-2003 04:36									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think that inheritences should be taxed at 100%. The flipside is, why the hell are the Republicans trying to bankrupt the Federal government?

-So they have an excuse to take out social security and other programmes they don't like.

	19-06-2003 05:59									#57
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quote: Absolutely correct. Some people are concerned with fairness for 0.3% of America, others care about the other 99.7%

Yes, those shameful communists who only want fairness for party members (ie, 0.3% of the population) .

quote: So they have an excuse to take out social security and other programmes they don't like.

That's what I was thinking... and if it's the reason, what a brilliant move. Gotta break some eggs before you make an omelet, after all.

	19-06-2003 06:27									#58
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That is good Imran. Hopefully Republican policies will **** things up so bad that progressives can band together and storm Washington to install a REAL democracy.

viva la revolucion

	19-06-2003 06:31									#59
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Ha ha... you wish.. actually you do .

It'll never happen. That last liberal with a chance was Richard Nixon . Even the Dems are fiscally centrists these days.

	19-06-2003 06:43									#60
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quote: "How can it be fair to give the wealthiest 10,000 families in America a bonanza?" said House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi.

There you have the liberal mindset, you aren't "giving" anything, you're stealing less.

GePap -

quote: Theft is defined by the state.

Really? Then how was it defined before the state came into existence or was there just no theft back then?

Sava - I don't know what the current thresh hold for the estate tax is, but it was ~$600,000 just a couple years ago. And thanks to inflation, another government tax, many many people will have taxable estates (including state inheritance taxes). This has led to children having to sell off family businesses/farms to pay the estate tax.