19-06-2003 09:56									#121
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Reagon didn't increase taxes on anyone. I also get tired of this "tax cuts for the rich" BS which people keep throwing around. First off the poor and even most of thelower middle class (as long as their married & have kids) don't pay any federal taxes to speak of so of course a tax cut isn't going to help them. After all tax cuts will only help tax payers.

Since the rich pay the vast, vast majority of taxes guess who will recieve the vast, vast majority of a tax cut? It's not rocket science and it is entriely fair.

	19-06-2003 10:00									#122
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Oerdin -

quote: 90% is just plan theft. I'd vote for 50% though.

	19-06-2003 10:04									#123
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I guess most of the people who don't have children are the ones that want to tax the hell out of estates.

Wait until you have children to love and care about... wait until you want to take care of them after your death... and then we will see if your attitude changes.

I've been taxed already on the money I made, and at a very high rate. I have no problem with that. But to tax it again because I die is just pure crap. That money is family money... I didn't earn it for myself... I earned it for my family/children as well.

	19-06-2003 10:07									#124
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Odin -

quote: Libertarianism is an excuse to make greed morally acceptable. To the Libertarians anything that is fair is theft, an excuse for greed.

No, just more morally acceptable than theft.

	19-06-2003 10:12									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Reagon didn't increase taxes on anyone. I also get tired of this "tax cuts for the rich" BS which people keep throwing around. First off the poor and even most of thelower middle class (as long as their married & have kids) don't pay any federal taxes to speak of so of course a tax cut isn't going to help them. After all tax cuts will only help tax payers. Since the rich pay the vast, vast majority of taxes guess who will recieve the vast, vast majority of a tax cut? It's not rocket science and it is entriely fair.

Hmmm.. I think I'm lower middle and I paid tax last year.

edit: What is the cut off?

	19-06-2003 10:12									#126
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Ming -

quote: That money is family money... I didn't earn it for myself... I earned it for my family/children as well.

	19-06-2003 10:16									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I guess most of the people who don't have children are the ones that want to tax the hell out of estates. Wait until you have children to love and care about... wait until you want to take care of them after your death... and then we will see if your attitude changes. I've been taxed already on the money I made, and at a very high rate. I have no problem with that. But to tax it again because I die is just pure crap. That money is family money... I didn't earn it for myself... I earned it for my family/children as well.

Ming the money is changing hands so it is a taxable transaction. Also as I said before we should raise the cut off amount which triggers the estate tax but we should not eliminate the estate tax since it does provide such a large chunk of change to the federal budget. With Bush already running up record deficits (and more in sight since he wants still more tax cuts and speeding increases) we just can't afford to go cold turkey.

	19-06-2003 10:18									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Hmmm.. I think I'm lower middle and I paid tax last year. edit: What is the cut off?

Double check that. You should get all of your federal income tax back especially if you have any deductions like head of house hold, married, kids, or own your own home.

I suspect you're thinking of FICA or state income taxes.

	19-06-2003 11:13									#129
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Sava -

quote: Sorry I thought this was a Democracy...

Nope, read the Constitution.

quote: Yeah how many jobs did the 2001 tax cut create?

We'll know an estimate in a few years. Small changes in tax policy takes some time to show up. Hell, most of that tax cut wasn't even designed to show up for a few years.

quote: or the Reagan cuts? oh yeah... those economic policies didn't create any jobs... in fact, the economy lost jobs...

Ahem, where in the article did you discover that jobs were lost under Reagan? I believe something like 20 million were created, not that I put alot of trust in stats like that given the complexities of an economy.

quote: How many jobs did the 1993 Clinton budget create? What did Clinton's economic policy do?

Well, he certainly kept the growth going and 9/11 didn't happen in '93, a Republican controlled Congress did...

quote: Giving rich people money DOES NOT CREATE JOBS.... it DOES NOT EXPAND THE ECONOMY...

Hmm...every job I ever had was given to me by a wealthy person. Let me know how your job hunt goes as you look among the poorest people in the country for employment.

Imran - I've noticed you sound more liberal in our debates, but here you sound like...well...God forbid...a libertarian.

	19-06-2003 11:17									#130
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Oerdin -

quote: Ming the money is changing hands so it is a taxable transaction.

You mean we should tax Ming every time he gives his kids lunch money?

	19-06-2003 11:25									#131
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Whoo hoo! A tax break for 0.3% of the richest Americans!! And now the rest of us get to make up the difference! Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! Never in the history of humanity have so many people been so glad to have their taxes raised!

	19-06-2003 12:07									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Oerdin - You mean we should tax Ming every time he gives his kids lunch money?

It's obviously a difference between kids you are obligated to sustain (until 20something I'd guess) and grown ups. If he gives it to grown up children it'd be completely legitimate to tax it IMO, though impracticable.

Beside that, I must really come to the conclusion that Americans get everytime more blind, when you think it can't get worse. Sure, American working class, fight for the "rights" of the super-rich in order to make your budget lower!

As it's been previously said, it's a money transaction between individuals (as family as persona iuridica doesn't exist), so it should be taxed.

	19-06-2003 12:12									#133
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But Ming, what about self suffiency? Making it on their own? You know, the American Spirit?

	19-06-2003 12:23									#134
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screw it. Tax the rich, give that money to me.

I want more income redistribution dammit! In fact I don't think people like me who don't make a lot of money should have to pay taxes at all.

	19-06-2003 12:29									#135
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Wernazuma -

quote: It's obviously a difference between kids you are obligated to sustain (until 20something I'd guess) and grown ups. If he gives it to grown up children it'd be completely legitimate to tax it IMO, though impracticable.

Why does it become legitimate based on age? Does it stop belonging to Ming and his family?

quote: Beside that, I must really come to the conclusion that Americans get everytime more blind, when you think it can't get worse. Sure, American working class, fight for the "rights" of the super-rich in order to make your budget lower!

Trust me, most of us "blind" people want tax cuts for everyone, but we also know a tax cut for someone is a good thing even if we aren't the ones getting it.

quote: As it's been previously said, it's a money transaction between individuals (as family as persona iuridica doesn't exist), so it should be taxed.

I think you're confusing the sales tax with giving money to a family member. But since money is exchanged when we pay taxes, maybe the IRS can stick us with another "legitimate" tax on the act of paying taxes...

	19-06-2003 12:34									#136
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I see that no one has yet addressed the reason why so much of this argument is moot (besides the fact that the senate has yet to get its hands on this legislation). Namely, anyone with a big fat estate (ie those affected by this legislation) is going to simply avoid the inheritance tax by using trusts, gifts before they pass on, and offshore financial instruments to avoid this tax, just as they do now. As this tax already generates very little money, it makes sense to get rid of it, and perhaps make more money by keeping these assets in the U.S. and in more intelligent instruments, where they will profit both the government and the individuals more.

	19-06-2003 21:19									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Wernazuma - Why does it become legitimate based on age? Does it stop belonging to Ming and his family?

Luckily, kinships ties have lost their position as space with proper rules and being structures that dominate society into legislation too much. However emotionally we might feel belonging together or wanting to care for each other, family is no juridical entity anymore, with some exceptions, like statutory shares, and most importantly shared wealth between partners.
"Ming's family" is no persona iuridica.
It does never stop to belong to Ming, what stops is the obligation of Ming to care for his children. Thus the transaction is between independent individuals. Ming is not required to make his children his heirs, he is obligued though to care for the lunch of his children.
One can give away one's estate to anyone, though there's some statutory share. I would rather abandon that.

quote: Trust me, most of us "blind" people want tax cuts for everyone, but we also know a tax cut for someone is a good thing even if we aren't the ones getting it.

I was thinking of exluding extremist liberals like you from the argument because in your view, the state should do completely without any money obviously. The state needs funds, otherwise he can't control nor guide or make any politics.
Higher or lower taxes can be argued about, but saying that a tax cut has always to be good is also blind, but it's a different blindness.

quote: I think you're confusing the sales tax with giving money to a family member. But since money is exchanged when we pay taxes, maybe the IRS can stick us with another "legitimate" tax on the act of paying taxes...

Sure, the state should tax tax the money it actually gets from taxes with 100% That would leave the state with 100% of the money.


Generally, inheritance means getting capital/resources not based on personal merit. It allows some people an advantage over others without having done anything for it. I wouldn't want to have estates all sacked by the state as of course it should be the right of people to do what they want with their wealth, but it should not be a privileged space bare of taxes.

	19-06-2003 21:46									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I see that no one has yet addressed the reason why so much of this argument is moot (besides the fact that the senate has yet to get its hands on this legislation). Namely, anyone with a big fat estate (ie those affected by this legislation) is going to simply avoid the inheritance tax by using trusts, gifts before they pass on, and offshore financial instruments to avoid this tax, just as they do now. As this tax already generates very little money, it makes sense to get rid of it, and perhaps make more money by keeping these assets in the U.S. and in more intelligent instruments, where they will profit both the government and the individuals more.

Don't we collect $60 billion on it?

	19-06-2003 21:50									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Double check that. You should get all of your federal income tax back especially if you have any deductions like head of house hold, married, kids, or own your own home. I suspect you're thinking of FICA or state income taxes.

The tax table says that everyone owes federal income tax, but I can see that if you have exemptions that you might not have to. Still I think if you make 20k a year you will have to pay something unless you get child credit which shouldn't count because its a credit.

	19-06-2003 22:03									#140
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What if you inherit a peice of Real Estate woth 6 Million. Yet, it was bought for 3 Million, 10 years ago. Does the governemt take their estate tax from the 6 or from the 3 million.

What if you can't afford the property tax on it, or to pay the government when they come asking for their 50% of that estate? What are you going to do? Sell the estate.

So if they tx the 6 Million, they want 3 million. You sell it for 6 million, pay the government the 3 million, so your left with 3 million. Yet, is that 3 million now income, since you sold the inheritence?

If it is at the 3 Million, it is in't as bad, since the government only wants 1.5 Million. You sell it for 6 Million leaving you with 4.5 Million. Yet, once a gain do they see that 4.5 Million as income since you sold the property?

I guess what I am asking is if you inherit something, then sell it to pay the taxes, wouldn't you also be taxed again for the sell?