28-06-2003 01:39									#1
	M1 Abrahm super Tank History Channel Increase Your PM Length

I noticed in the thread "Could the US mount an industrial effort equal the effort of WW2? " (Located Here) That a lot of you know know a lot about Military machinery etc...

Just curious if any of you are going to watch the History channel special tonight named "M1 Abrams: Supertank!"
Airing Friday, June 27 @ 9pm ET/PT

Info about it can be found at http://www.historychannel.com/

"Join us as we penetrate the history of the world's most sophisticated tank--the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank. In the most radical departure in U.S. tank design since WWII, the Supertank combines speed, heavy protective armor, and a fearsome 120mm main gun. In 1991, the new and unproven Abrams tank was deployed in Operation Desert Storm. Using night vision and laser targeting, the M1 Abrams tank destroyed Saddam Hussein's armored Republican Guard, and is again doing desert duty in the War in Iraq. TV G"

	28-06-2003 01:40									#2
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AWESOME!

	28-06-2003 01:42									#3
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Many of the premier MBT's of the world are similar enough that what counts is the people in it, not the coffins they inhabit.

	28-06-2003 02:01									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Many of the premier MBT's of the world are similar enough that what counts is the people in it, not the coffins they inhabit.

It depends... if it's open warfare against a conventional army, having the better tank is important. Morale for one thing - if an opposing tanker knows his gun won't work except at suicidally close range they're very reluctant to start advancing.

If it's close range stuff against an opponent with good AT munitions the tank's advantages are nullified and it becomes more important to work closely with support infantry.

Also, Abrahms M1A2 is special... maybe Leopard 2 is as good, but nothing else quite matches it. I'd put Merkava next and UK Challenger behind all. It has a whole list of niggling flaws.

	28-06-2003 02:04									#5
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Some pictures:

	28-06-2003 02:16									#6
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Attachment: merkava.jpg
This has been downloaded 243 time(s).

	28-06-2003 02:24									#7
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oh cool, thatbks for the heads up... I havent watched tv in awhile, so i dunno any of the programs that are coming on. apearently I have missed some good ones

	28-06-2003 03:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Also, Abrahms M1A2 is special... maybe Leopard 2 is as good, but nothing else quite matches it. I'd put Merkava next and UK Challenger behind all. It has a whole list of niggling flaws.

What is "special" about the M1A2? The biggest edge I can think of is about the electronics inside, and not much to do with the physical armor, power plant of main armament, the thing being, you can upgrade the elctronics of other machines.

The difference between, say, a M1A2 and a Leopard 2 or a challenger 2 is not as great as between, say, a Panther and a T-34/85 or a Sherman Firefly. And even at that level, best crew wins.

	28-06-2003 03:09									#9
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When did something called the History channel turn into the channel about military hardware and WWII. I would love to turn there someday and see something pre-1900, not having to do with the history of the winchester rifle or some such nonsense.

	28-06-2003 03:10									#10
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A new MBT thread! This summer is saved!

	28-06-2003 03:28									#11
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Lol I like how the http://truewar.fateback.com/ (where Eli got the pics) site is just a bunch of random pictures with no real meaning.... I could get the same of affect of that site as just going to google and searching for "recked military units"


(Note the google search thing was a joke!!! we don't need the next 4 replies saying "I searched for it and nothing came up" )

quote: Originally posted by BeBro A new MBT thread! This summer is saved!

	28-06-2003 03:33									#12
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Well some bridges could give up when M1A2 attempts to cross them.
And if one would acidentaly go wrong way it would be nice splash and crew's bodies would be found in say 3 days.

	28-06-2003 05:50									#13
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whoops

	28-06-2003 05:53									#14
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HAHAHAHA on that truewar site... I like how some soldiers thought RPG ambushing an Abe would result in anything more than scorched paint and them dying shortly after

	28-06-2003 08:03									#15
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Any of you guys watch it? Comments on it?

I kept the channel on and watched the Camoflage special aswell, the Soldier 2025 thing would awesome if they could actualy get that technology researched in time.

	28-06-2003 08:24									#16
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What i liked best about the truewar site was that it didn't show anything about the few hundred thousand troops and their equipment we "neutralized"...

	28-06-2003 08:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka HAHAHAHA on that truewar site... I like how some soldiers thought RPG ambushing an Abe would result in anything more than scorched paint and them dying shortly after

Which might indicate it wasn't soldiers...

Try the pix on the next page, of the burning/wrecked Abrahms...

	28-06-2003 08:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Which might indicate it wasn't soldiers... Try the pix on the next page, of the burning/wrecked Abrahms...

...shows the damage to an M1-A1 following an RPG attack by gunmen at [...] No American soldier was killed, but one attacker killed and another captured during the morning raid.

Oh yes. That M1 is truly a write-off after the grenade put a nasty black mark on it! Anything else?

	28-06-2003 08:56									#19
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Hey Zylka, I didn't say the site had got it wrong... I said you might have.

Found those burning Abrahms pix yet?

	28-06-2003 09:42									#20
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The ones that weren't ambushed by delicate infantry RPGs? You can find them for me

	28-06-2003 11:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka The ones that weren't ambushed by delicate infantry RPGs? You can find them for me

An M1 confirmed kill by RPG. Couldn't be bothered to click start, could you?

Well, there's this...



For those who think that's a fluke, there's this...

	28-06-2003 11:50									#22
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This bit is off the HistoryChannel sales spiel;-

quote: In the years after World War II, Soviet tank design improved rapidly, leaving the West far behind. With most military planners still assuming that the plains of Europe were...

Complete crap. US tanks may have lagged behind, but Brit and German ones certainly didn't.
Interesting the vid is "unavailable outside the US and Canada". Perhaps because too many people would want their money back?

	28-06-2003 12:16									#23
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An RPG did that to an abrahms!?

	28-06-2003 13:12									#24
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the first one just hit the track. the tracks are vulnerable to rpg's if hit in the right spot.

Not sure about the secone picture. I can't imagine a rpg could burn the entire tank like that. It must have exploded the ammunition inside- but how?

	28-06-2003 15:52									#25
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The first one is just a "mobility kill". Easily repaired, and it can still use weapons (whether the crew sticks around to use the weapons is another matter entirely).

The second is not an RPG hit.

	28-06-2003 15:54									#26
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It dosen't look like an ammo hit -- the turret is still in one piece.

	28-06-2003 23:07									#27
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I would guess both are examples of multiple RPG hits.

One RPG on it's own isn't too bad...

I wouldn't say 1st was example of mobility kill - the crew traversed the turret to point backwards for some reason. Maybe co-axial was only operational MG at the time - anyway, you can't leave a tank gun over an open fire for a few hours. It distorts and is totally useles.

I woud guess 2nd is a hit on the ammo storage (the external doors blew) BUT for some reason the DU armour caught fire... DU armour is good against kinetic rounds but can be a liability against HEAT.

And don't think I'm knocking the M1. It's the best there is right now - but it still isn't perfect.

Last edited by Cruddy on 28-06-2003 at 23:13

	29-06-2003 00:03									#28
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The second one was disabled first, then destroyed by US forces themselves.

We lost a total of 4 Abrams during the war: 2 near Najaf, 1 in Bagdhad, and another 1 somewhere else.

	29-06-2003 01:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless The second one was disabled first, then destroyed by US forces themselves. We lost a total of 4 Abrams during the war: 2 near Najaf, 1 in Bagdhad, and another 1 somewhere else.

not bad what was the crew casualty rate like, anyone know? close to zero I would imagine. The abrahms Ive always read about has always praised its crewmen survivalability

	29-06-2003 02:42									#30
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The M1 will fill its combat role versus other tanks and infantry but is a large and expensive target in a urban arena which a good deal of the warfare we fight now.
They re just too big for speedy infiltrations.